“The military will refuse illegal orders” is a fantasy and should absolutely not be counted on.
Especially if the ones who will refuse to comply keep quitting
“Refuse illegal orders” is like the military version of “stop paying taxes and stop going to work” but at least a magnitude worse. It sounds good and virtuous but there are practical life-changing consequences for doing so.
UCMJ will chew you up and throw you to the side very quickly. Prison is almost a certainty. A dishonorable discharge hangs on you like a felony conviction. And that’s assuming they won’t use illegal force on you or your family.
It sounds good and virtuous but there are practical life-changing consequences for doing so.
There are practical life changing consequences to protesting. Ask some of the hippies who marched for Civil Rights (while they are still around…) and how often they have a “just checking in” visit from a sheriff or get pulled out of line at the airport for enhanced screening. Let alone anyone who goes farther than marching and chanting.
UCMJ will chew you up and throw you to the side very quickly.
Oh noes! The fascists giving unlawful orders won’t give you any more unlawful orders!
Prison is almost a certainty. A dishonorable discharge hangs on you like a felony conviction. And that’s assuming they won’t use illegal force on you or your family.
All of that is happening to people resisting ICE. Even being spotted recording/documenting the brutal assault of “illegals” puts you at risk of that.
But hey. I get it. Resisting tyranny and fighting for The People is scary. Why would I expect the military to ever be brave enough to do that? They only received training in how to oppress a populace. How can they be expected to put on an inflatable frog costume and dance?
Ucmj will screw you up if you do follow illegal orders too. There’s a ucmj that everyone has the local obligation to refuse an illegal ordere
I mean that’s probably why its best (for the individuals serving at least) to quit, once you quit you don’t have to make the decision to obey or disobey orders, so you don’t need to deal with court-martials either way.
Unfortunately, this also means that everyone who stays are probably morally corrupt and would not longer adhere to the constitution.
You can’t just quit the military except in some small cases like this colonel and other officers. The entire enlisted side not in retirement availability range are locked in.
I had an argument with someone on here a while back over this. They claimed that America couldn’t ever go full on fascist because our military is taught to question illegal orders…
Like a private who joined the army to get out of poverty is really going to have the legal understanding to question the constitutional grounds of his orders. People have no idea how the military works, or exactly how much control an officer or NCO has over their enlisted service men.
It’s not an illogical position to take it’s just naive. In the same way that military service members are supposed to disregard illegal orders, Congress is supposed to impeach a President who breaks the law or established codes of conduct.
It sounds good in theory but both ultimately rely on the integrity of the people in those positions. If they don’t rise to the challenge then there isn’t anything stopping the bad actors from doing what they want with impunity. We can hope it will be enough but it hasn’t changed much so far. It seems like the people who could act know this and are colluding with the executive branch to test how far they can push things before we decide to go looking outside the system for solutions. I see no reason to believe that the military will respond any differently than Congress has.
see no reason to believe that the military will respond any differently than Congress has.
Yeap, imo they’ve already done a test crossing of the Rubicon. When the military agreed to utilize active duty service members to transport prisoners from the US, it was a blatant disregard of their prohibition of policing on US soil.
It’s all part of the American gun myth where they tell each other they could overthrow their government with their hunting rifles and the military won’t just mortar their dreams away before they even saw it coming because they feel like the military will refuse to, for reasons they can’t explain.
That way, they can justify their crazy lack of gun control and all the school children who get murdered due to it.
IMO, It’s all interlinked.
Depends on who gives the orders.
Its a lot more realistic than a full on revolution, but still not very realistic.
I’m surprised individuals are not looking at the internal demographic data says about this take.
https://download.militaryonesource.mil/12038/MOS/Reports/2023-demographics-report.pdf
I’m not as doubtful as yall. Remember when the GOP had hearing about the Woke military and why they were washing out so many “good candidates” (They were referring to those individuals rejected for having strong racial beliefs… Aka racist.) 49% of the military is under the age of 25. The data doesn’t separate Hispanics from white people, probably on purpose. But I suspect Hispanic it’s close to 20%. With 17% Black and 17% women I’m not sure this is a slam dunk for Trump. Yes the military is and always will be a right, male, and white dominated space, but their not stupid. Let’s just say trump pulls the trigger on fully occupies American with our own military. What percentage of the military do you think will just follow orders when you take in to consideration the demographics?
Also, 1 million people are in the active military, about 900k of them are in the US. With another 800k in reserve. The US population is 340 million. Even if every republican joins the occupation I don’t think they have the bodies to cover more than 2 states.
In my opinion I’m saying it’s a coin toss because the moment he does this there will be major fracturing within the military across so many lines the first shots are going to happen within the military before 1.7 million boots hit our streets.
He resigned and then he wants others to resist?
When you are in the military, you are under an unbreakable contract.
While getting out is preferable, for those who can not, it’s better that they resist the illegal orders.
Nonetheless, he is one who would resist such orders and left so he wouldn’t have to. That leaves potentially others in charge who will simply bend a knee for the paycheck, ego or ideology.
I think the point is more that while you’re in the military, you’re likely restricted in what you can say publicly, even if it’s possible to resist illegal orders within the structure. The guys resigned and no longer beholden to that restriction, so he’s publicly urging others to take similar actions in resisting illegal orders.
Could be wrong, as I’m not that familiar with military requirements, but that’d be my guess.
True, it seems that’s the route the US army is going.
Everyone in the military swore an oath to defend the constitution from all threats foreign and domestic.
…giving his two weeks notice to our chief domestic threat doesn’t quite live up to that responsibility.
Our military is absolutely stuffed with cowards and traitors.
Your military exists to bomb foreign kids and prop up US interests, not to stop fascism.
Like I said - cowards and traitors.
And the military who thinks they’re being ordered to break the law should stay and resist…
Like, I know, this a marine. But surely they retain enough critical thinking to understand if everyone who thinks trump is giving illegal orders resigns…
The only people left in the military would be people who are fine with this shit.
When people say “lead, follow, or get out of the way”
The “get out of the way” option is supposed to embarrass them into at least following.
You can’t “get out of the way” of fucking fascism and then expect people to clap for you. It’s only going to be idiots who don’t understand anything clapping.
Giving up is not a viable strategy in the face of fascism.
Resigning is a way to call attention to the problem while you still have most of your credibility. There would be a smear campaign against you, but the alternative situation might be after getting fired for cause, where it would be easier to believe that you are just making excuses to save face. Especially if you are already demoralized and don’t have the energy to make a stand, you may start feeding the idea that you are just unfit for the job and lose support internally.
It also adds a bit of chaos into the organization that needs to replace you and may not have somebody prepared to step into a position haunted by this politicized issue and rocky transition. It does happen because organizations are made of limited and discrete people, but it is easy to be afraid of the infinite number of sycophants that must be ready to take their place.
It might be a tactic that is useful in limited situations, but I agree in general that we want rusty cogs slowing down the fascist machine.
Resigning is a way to call attention to the problem
Oh wow!
I didn’t realize this was for awareness. Someone go get Susan G Kommen out of whatever mansion she’s hiding in and tell her we need to raise fucking awareness that trump is violating the constitution.
Obviously nothing is more important than awareness!
Why fight fascism when you can raise awareness?
#Giant fucking /S
You kid but awareness is a first order problem in the fight itself, and I hate to break it to you, but a significant portion of the population is not meaningfully aware of how dire it is.
Something like this might be the thing that gets through to them. There is also probably a large portion of the population who suspects how bad this is but doesn’t trust the media and is specifically looking to see how the military leaders react to this stuff.
If there are any perceived adults in the room at this point, it is probably the military.
Oh yeah, I’m absolutely positive the people who are ignorant of what’s happening will see this Huff Post article and their minds will change…
This one news article about a quitter raises waaaaaya more awareness than months/years of court cases where officers are being let go for not following specific orders they felt were illegal
If there are any perceived adults in the room at this point, it is probably the military
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Not as much as you’d think
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They’ll be even less, if the few adults left fucking resign and leave
You would be making such a killer point if this were even remotely the only article covering it, haha.
Let’s say a dozen articles over a week if say that’s generous though.
Compare that to years/months of trump having to fire 100s maybe even thousands of officers while they say loudly and repeatedly exactly what the illegal.orders were in a courtroom…
Like cmon man.
Even if you legitimately think awareness is most important, making trump fire them is more awareness.
And that’s not even getting into how much of a hassle firing an officer is.
The harsh truth is their cowards who want to retain the benefits that come with resigning.
If they resign they’re putting themselves over the country, against the oath they swore.
They’re fucking cowards not heroes, and I legit don’t know why people don’t see that.
I didn’t say awareness is most important, I said it was first order, and I stand by that.
I’m not saying this is enough and we should prop our feet up and wait for it all to blow over. I’m saying awareness itself is critically important for anything else to happen, and whether this is the thing that will do it or not (it won’t be one thing), it’s critical that more of the populace becomes aware.
I’m not even sure what we’re arguing about at this point, but you’re +7 in my upvote history so I clearly agree with you on a lot, but I think it is important for leaders to walk away and it’s important for people to see that happening.
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As I understand it, they were about to fire him, so staying and resisting may not have been an option. Perhaps he wanted to get ahead of the story and have his.moment to speak.
Also, I’ve never been in the military, but I imagine they have extremely strict policies against active duty members (particularly officers) criticizing the administration in public. This guy probably had to quit first if he wanted to say what he said publicly.
I hope it has an effect on current active-duty troops when they get their illegal orders.
they were about to fire him
Then make them do it…
It’s not something that can happen at the snap of a finger, and even after the fact would involve court cases that take resources away from the shitty things they’re trying to do…
We’re fucking fighting fascism man, we have to fight every battle even if we lose, because it at least eats up the clock.
There is literally zero gain from resigning.
If all the decent, moral, knowledgeable, experienced military personnel leave, then MAGA will be left with a military of incompetents, led by incompetents, all the way to the very top. They may have the weapons, but they won’t know how to use them.
But the Resistance will have all the intelligent experienced military leaders, who not only know how to use the weapons, but know how they are secured, and how they can be “liberated.”
Yes, everyone knows if the majority of the military is untrained and lacks critical thinking skills, they could never successfully oppress their population.
That’s why African Warlords with armies full of child soldiers famously never commit unspeakable atrocities on their citizens.
That’s a silly analogy. American soldiers do not have the same life experiences as African child soldiers. It’s ridiculous to think that both types of soldiers would react the same way.
All soldiers have the potential to commit atrocities, and many will, but a lot of American soldiers will refuse to commit atrocities against their fellow citizens.
but they won’t know how to use them.
…
I can assure you even a child can use a rifle. Sadly it happens every day.
And that “resistance” is not going to have access to any type of weapon that would require more than five minutes of training.
I was military, my dad was military, a grand dad was, multiple aunts/uncles were, literally innumerable cousins…
I can assure you not all of my family is intelligent, and the military designs things for the lowest common denominator.
Even nuclear engineering in the military isn’t exactly challenging, the training is just intentionally stressful so it will be harder than actual service.
Like, look at other actual resistances in other countries, you don’t even know what will be used as weapons in a hypothetical resistance…
And this place is better than reddit, but I don’t think I could get more specific than that
Edit:
Also, intelligence and compassion aren’t correlated.
In fact once you get more than a couple standard deviations above average, misanthropy tends to be one the norm.
It’s hard to explain. Imagine someone just walks up and hits you in the balls, then acts surprised that you’re hurt and upset with them
Long before a very intelligent person understands that they’re very intelligent…
They just think every other human is an inconsiderate asshole we doesn’t put a second of thought into how their actions effects others. It is incredible easy and unfortunately common for that opinion to stuck around for a long time.
Agreed. I get the guys point, but the most powerful weapon we still have is our soldiers, and their allegiance to the American people, and the principals that our country stands for. He is far more powerful if he remains, and sticks to his beliefs.
That assumes he can stay and won’t be dishonorable discharged for some trumped up reason.
This gives him a platform to let others know that shit is going down without that smear campaign.
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A former U.S. Marine Corps colonel and combat veteran of 24 years resigned in late September, now saying he did so because of President Donald Trump and “concern for our country’s future.”
In an op-ed titled “I resigned from the military because of Trump,” published in The Washington Post on Thursday, Doug Krugman noted that “no commander in chief is perfect,” but said he nevertheless believed that previous presidents took their oaths to the Constitution seriously.
With Trump, he wrote, he no longer believes that.
