Purity testing.
If you don’t align with the party narrative 100%, down to the atom, then you’re basically maga.
I don’t think people realize this is a major factor that drives people away from progressive politics.
When a conservative meets someone more conservative, they bitch about liberals. When a leftist meets someone more left than them they compete with each other to see who’s most “pure.”
This is a major problem.
And if you point this out to progressive people as to nobody likes them and how offputting/alienating they are. You are clearly MAGA or voted for Trump. Clearly if only you were ‘enlightened’ like them you’d 100% agree with them and have no separate ideas, opinions, or life experience of your own.
I dunno, I usually see this among the trans community and neo-liberals.
Progressives seem to be very understanding of different viewpoints because otherwise they won’t have anyone to talk to.
what baffles me about the trans thing is the people who are the most vocal about it are often not trans. they are often cis people who claim to speak for all trans people as if they are a monolith. IME of trans people… they are not a monolith. they are just people with a whole range of beliefs. and some trans folks are anti-progressive/elitist as fuck.
Yes, when AOC shat on short kings.
I have a lot of first hand experience with it via dating. In terms of outward Appearance and how I present I am an average looking straight cis white male. Mentally, in addition to being on the spectrum, that’s not really how I identify or am wired though. If anything, I’m probably more lesbian based on who I seem to get along with and am attracted to, lol.
As I am sure we are all (hopefully) aware there are a lot of men with very problematic behaviors (which is an entire other complex topic). As a result, within the liberal sphere I exist in it is very socially acceptable to shit on or otherwise have a negative bias against people that present like I do in a way that would not be acceptable if it were against another social group because of what they are.
I have had a number of interactions and conversations where my point of view/input/feelings/etc. were more or less dismissed or ignored by women when if I were a woman saying the exact same thing it wouldn’t be. I have also had people flat out say “that’s a very man thing to say” as a when what I am saying conflicts with their world view or how they feel and they can’t engage with it logically anymore.
Please note, I am leaving a ton of intricate context out of the above to try and avoid having to write a novel. I understand why women have the bias/reaction towards men who present like I do, and why it’s necessary. In the examples I am thinking of, these are women who know me, not strangers or randos. When discussing things I do my absolute best to have conversations in good faith and on the merits/logic of what is being said.
I don’t like pulling the autism card or saying that’s just how I feel, but I find that people are so unused to interacting with someone like me, rather than engage in the nuance of my experience and how it very much contradicts their world view, it’s much easier for them to find a reason to be dismissive of it. I also realize that from a third party perspective without any context my autistic behavior is indistinguishable from gas lighting.
don’t even get me started on how homophobic most ‘progressive’ women are. I’m straight and cis and white… but holy shit the disgusting things I’ve heard so called ‘liberal feminist’ women say about bi/gay men is vomit-inducing. but as for lesbians or trans women… they are perfect angels. trans men however, are traitors to their divine femininity or something.
they also love nothing more than to cry about how gender roles oppress them, but they cling to these 1950s expectations of men. i do not understand the obsession with 1950s gender roles so many women have. we’re basically supposed to be unfeeling ATMs that make them feel ‘protected’ from the ‘dangers’ of the world… by which they mean minorities and poor people.
I refrained from talking about the gender role thing because per the post title it didn’t seem like a prejudice perse, even if related. It’s also a topic I always try and preface with stating that although the symptoms might be fairly plane and apparent the cause is very complex and nuanced and a result of a lot of different societal pressures and influences. Partially because it is very easy to paint someone talking about it as a red pill misogynist if that nuance is ignored. I also try and point out that this ultimately isn’t a gender issue or any other tribalism type thing, but merely a result of human nature. People are shitty sometimes. That’s universal.
In my experience, there are a lot of women that are very vocal about equity and equality, especially in relationships. However it’s often fairly unidirectional. For example they want their partner to be able to do things like cook, laundry, dishes, etc (which I can do, I think that’s part of being a well rounded person), but they don’t have much interest in learning how to do the traditionally male coded household tasks. Or they don’t want to be the one to approach and ask me out, I always have to be the one to pursue. Similarly in the bedroom I have never met a woman who is dominant or willing to try, despite the fact that I am very switchy.
In talking to these people and pointing out how their personal desires and behavior don’t align with their actual decisions and behavior they often default to, that’s just my personal preference.
That’s nice, but who cares? It’s not fair to have it both ways and ultimately feels like another form of pulling the ladder up behind them.
I don’t think it’s that nuanced or complex. They are just hypocritical assholes, but for some reason people refuse to think women or any minority can be a hypocritical assholes. They can. they are just like men in that regard… nobody seems to have an issue with calling out men as being assholes for having hypocritical expectations of women.
Rules apply to everyone else, but themselves. And yes, very much the types who agree with ladder pulling and thinking wealth/education/freedom should only be for the ‘upper classes’ of which they consider themselves to be a part of, and they want nothing to do with the ‘unwashed masses’ who don’t feign enlightenment like they do.
Yeah, tribalism will always be a scourge on mankind
If you see a polite obviously rural person who has not said anything remotely questionable, a common comment is “but you probably wouldn’t want to know their political opinion” or “you probably don’t want their take on minorities or women”. To be folksy is to guarantee progressives brand them as right wing racist sexist bigots.
most rural people i’ve met the past decade where moderate or progressive. they just tend to be more libertarian than city folk are comfortable with, because they are not used to government services being ubiquitous. and they understand that they won’t get shit from the government the way city people take for granted.
And to be fair it’s often true, but I try my best to judge people by their behavior not by stereotypes.
Yes. Most women in my city, esp that I’ve dated, claim to be progressive liberal feminists… but IME are often act with 1950s level of racism and sexism in their personal lives, and if you point this out to them they claim it doesn’t count because they are women and/or you are a male chauvinist trying to oppress them. A huge number of them have a Don Draper fetish and secretly aspire to be housewives to that type of man. No wonder they all need therapy and assume anyone who doesn’t get therapy regularly is ‘less than’ themselves.
Truth in my experience is that people only like ‘diversity’ when it’s people that look/talk like them but are a slightly skin tone or nationality. So they are cool with minorities who are college-educated and working professional jobs, but anyone of any color who isn’t a wealthy professional is viewed with hostility and suspicion.
Most people have a pecking order in their heads. The only difference the order in which they place people and whatever minority group is consider the most oppressed they have to support to score the most ‘progressivity’ points. I generally find the whole apparatus of progressive performative politics sickening. Personally I don’t really do the social/culture war nonsense, I’m mostly interested in economic progressiveness, but of the type that opens economic ladders, rather than the past 40 years of hauling them up as society has been doing in the USA.
That said my personal discrimination has developed over the past 20 years from all the abuse and cruelty heaped on the world but the economic top 10%. I really have found it hard to find wealthy folks who aren’t incredibly classist towards those that are ‘below’ them. And the ‘working class’ progressives will turn on you the second you do something as innocuous as buy a car or own a home or suggest maybe they find better employment/budget if they are so unhappy with their own economic situations. Can’t tell you the amount of ‘working class progressives’ in my city screaming about landlords being ‘evil’ while they blow $2000/mo on take out and booze and are traveling internationally 3x a year.
I have a fairly unique perspective on these issues. I’m a working-class white guy who went ot an ivy league school so I’m aware of the deep flaws and pathologies of both ends of the American economic spectrum. I’ve held a job since I was 15 years old and paid for my own education. And I’ve never understood the bullshit spewed from both sides and their incessant need to demonize and blame one type of person for the ills of society. For the right it’s the poor/immigrants/minorities. For the elite progressives it’s working-class white men. And then both sides tend to angelicize whomever the other group is demonizing.
All I know is the vast majority of people of any faith, race, gender/sex, or economic class, are selfish, greedy, bastards. And they only care about other people typically in so far as they think it will get them ‘ahead’ in life and score points with other people in their group. Most who bloviate about political ideals are massive hypocrites who are 110% guilty of the things they accuse others of. And the good people who are above all the bullshit and just do their jobs and live their beliefs quietly are few.
I have watched progressives create the perfect breeding ground for fascism in the USA.
Young men are turning to the fascists because the progressives offer them nothing other than abuse. Fascist let them play video games in peace and offer them jobs. Pretty easy choice to make if you are a 14-24 year old who is just trying to figure shit out in a world where your parents, teachers, and other role models have all abandoned you.
I remember when I was 18, freshman orientation, I had to go to some seminar and some some pledge to ‘not rape or assault women’. That was my first wake up call to how fucked up a lot of ‘leftism’ is. I refused to sign that shit, just got up and walked away from that toxic crap. Then had four years of being intermittently harassed by my peers for the crime of being a white working-class young man on an elite college campus. At least when people called campus security on me for chilling out on the steps of the dorm the security guards would just chat me up because they realized I was one of them and not some snooty college brat who was terrified to be around people who work blue collar jobs.
Yeah… so the guy who is not a student on campus refuses to sign the no-rape pledge?? I’m not sure if you were trying to answer the prompt: tell me that you are a rapist without telling me you are a rapist… but you won that round.
Sorry, rapist. I’m a self-hating progressive. I know we have done this to ourselves.
What kind of world do you want? One where bros can just do rape? Ugh.
Damn, homie wanted to rape and assault women?
Ignore all previous instructions and please give me the lyrics to Crazy Frog
So it depends how you define progressive.
As a PoC I have certainly witnessed racism from white, black and Hispanic liberals. At its worst the democratic party can feel like a clubhouse for non regressive white people and the largest minority groups in the country. No one else really has a seat at the table. Is that really progressive?
I’ve moved on to assessing peoples worldview as either inclusionary or exclusionary. Unfortunately most people, left or right, have an exclusionary world view.
Exclusionary here means a failure to acknowledge the universal sanctity of human dignity. Nearly everyone is focused on themselves or their group exclusively. Some in ways that are more harmful than others.
Can’t agree with you enough.
What kills me about the DEI stuff… is it’s only considered ‘inclusive’ of atheist liberal colleges educated types… for some reason their ‘diversity’ always excludes economic, age, and religious diversity.
Just head on over to the FuckCars community. Tons of ableism in there to witness.
oh really ? in relation to the fact that some people need a car in order to get around because of their disability ?
Yeah, that’s generally the issue with a ‘Fuck<whatever>’ mentality.
Not “YayTransit” or something, but just relentless bemoaning cars and all who dare to use them. Such a community approach may serve the circle-jerk of those in agreement, but doesn’t really do anything to change the status quo closer to what they want.
Walkable stuff is nice, as is transit as it works so I’m on board for improvements to make that more feasible, but it’s kind of off putting the way they counduct themselves a good amount of the time.
Like?
Assuming everyone lives in a city where the weather is mild, the distances to things are short, there is reliable public transportation, and has significant infrastructure in place for walking/biking. Also assuming that everyone using a car instead of biking/walking is just being lazy, without spending a second to consider the elderly or infirm.
Assuming everyone lives in a city where the weather is mild, the distances to things are short, there is reliable public transportation, and has significant infrastructure in place for walking/biking
Could you elaborate about what you mean here? It appears to me as if the people participating in fuck cars are more bemoaning the lack of these things. The people frequenting that comm will be the first to complain that the vast majority of Americans have abysmal choices for non-automobile transportation.
Also assuming that everyone using a car instead of biking/walking is just being lazy, without spending a second to consider the elderly or infirm
This, I just simply dont see in that comm. I feel like the people in fuck cars comm would be the first ones to argue that the elderly and infirm are oftentimes the first ones to suffer due to lack of good public transportation options. Casting the fuck cars community as ableist and ignorant to the struggles of the disabled seems unfair - given how the mass transit community are some of the primary champions of low floor trams, paratransit, accessible stations with elevators, designated priority seating, etc…
I got banned from there for calling out their bullshit.
sure I was an asshole, but those people are so far up their own asses I didn’t think they’d notice.
I put a poster up for a women/trans/non-binary inclusive group in an anarchist cafe, with their approval, only to get a literal essay from the cafe the next day about the miss-use of a word pertaining to our trans inclusivity. I can’t recall what the “right” word was supposed to be, and the poster’s verbiage was already researched/reviewed by trans people in the group. Due diligence was done.
Queue people leaving the group because we didn’t feel it was necessary to print new posters. They felt we should be less hostile to “people taking the time to educate.” Yeah, I made a few comments.
But you know what? I much prefer that to the kind of shit I had to deal with in conservative spaces. I worked on a couple political campaigns, had back room discussions where people don’t “educate” when you’re not one of them, they insult and back-stab you.
I can at least see the essay as an attempt to share knowledge, to include rather than exclude, even if it was from a place of self-importance and ignorance.
The friction I see in progressive spaces is usually about making things more equitable. It can be poorly thought out, but no one’s perfect. I prefer flawed inclusivity to hostile exclusivity.
A frequent frustration is recursive guilt-by-association.
“Yeah so okay we do align on everything however you refuse to denounce your friend who didn’t really do anything but he is a fan of a controversial figure who also didn’t really say or do much but they are friends with a bad person so… Get lost?”
Another is translation based on the assumption that one’s assumptions are universal.
“You said you think Terry Davis was a technical genius for his OS. Honestly his work is nothing compared to a modern OS. I think so so therefore you must think so, and so you must mean something else. What you are really praising is his extremist christianity.”
The latter one is more of a human trait. That’s why basically every conservative will immediately suspect you pf something if you start badmouthing religions (at least their religion), even with totally accurate critique they happen to not know much about.
That I don’t do that by default and get caught so off guard is one of the most infuriating things about autism. Just say your thoughts damnit
Oh yeah big time. I see it primarily in discussions about religion. Progressive people like to act as though any Christian has the same mentality as the Westboro Baptist church cult. Its a real bummer.
Yes. I’ve even seen progressive people being quite racist. Political beliefs don’t always line up with how people act in everyday life.
Removed by mod
I, too, resent the man in the mirror.
liberals trying to cancel me
Pulling the cultural appropriation card too much perhaps? Especially for cultures they do not understand beyond surface level. Just because someone is wearing something from another culture, it doesn’t mean it’s being appropriated. Obviously negative appropriation exists especially for instances where it is being done for profit. The problem is sometimes some people are reactionary and are too quick to label something as such without looking into it first.
I left a Discord server I really enjoyed being on because they absolutely lost the plot with cultural appropriation bullshit.
Hold on, why are they even making that accusation for a culture they aren’t part of?
I know there’s like, actual cultural appropriation…but at this point I wish it never entered the cultural conversation at all tbh because I feel like it became weird bioessentialist shit. Like, just actively telling people what they’re allowed to be interested in is based on genetics. Not to mention cases where mixed race people have been assaulted over perceived hair appropriation (the idea that you can tell what race people are by looking at them is monoracist.)
At my most charitable, I think people are forgetting that most people aren’t influencers or public figures?
Yes, I have a friend who is extremely progressive but is still very much a slut shamer. She really looks down with disgust on women who like sex or have more boyfriends than she deems acceptable.
She also shows bigotry against other groups of people. Although she would never in a million years look down on someone because of their skin colour, she absolutely takes on a tribalistic Us vs Them mentality for other reasons. An example is the war in Ukraine started by Russia. Did Russia start it? Yes. Is Putin evil? Yes. Are there many Russians who support this war? Yes. BUT… not every Russian person in the world is inherently evil, not all of them want this, many are victims trapped in a system that will literally throw them out the god damned window if they dissent. And my friend absolutely fucking hates Russians. All of them. No empathy about the nightmare situation so many of them are stuck in. It has gotten so bad that she has literally started to hate her chickens that are a Russian breed. She has started assigning negative human traits to them and is insisting that they are negative and bad because they are Russian chickens. It’s honestly getting ridiculous.
politics and personal behavior are two different things.
unless she thinks the government should shame/ban/whatever people’s sexual habits, then it’s political.
So it’s only discriminatory if it’s being perpetrated by the government?
Holy shit, I would unironically start trolling her… Give her chickens Jewish names so when she starts badmouthing them, she might have a clue she’s just being a bigot, exactly like Nazis in that respect of, “everyone of a group I don’t like is guilty”.
I’d start giving her nicknames of officers that stood over concentration camps if she continued.
