A person who was actually educated on the topic would call them fascists, not Nazis. Unless you think they’re literally the National Socialist German Workers’ Party of the 1930s then they’re not Nazis.
Calling fascists Nazis is a meme spread by the ignorant who’s only education is social media. Don’t confuse upvotes with being correct, the Internet is full of ignorant people and literal children.
OR as someone with this exact education you are talking about, we are calling them Nazis because hey are closest to Neo-Nazis in their ideology and we call Neo-nazis “Nazis”.
Given you claimed education why are you not seeing this?
Ah yes, everyone who defends Palestine are supporters of Hamas no?
Too bad the other side won’t give you the same deference you give the Nazi, oops I meant the Neo Nazis, or no wait the Fascists.
This is all about optics and if calling them Nazi works to any degree, I could care less about semantics.
Consider conservatives care exactly zero percent about semantics, it seems like your personal crusade to correct every reference from Nazi to Fascist is foolhardy to say the least.
If your point is that the right mischaracterizes things and twists the truth for political advantage, then I agree with you.
I’m saying that anyone that’s doing that is wrong, no matter which ‘side’ they are on. Lying and spinning the truth is toxic to political discourse and should be discouraged even when it is unpopular (as here).
Go find the Wikipedia article about companies that participated in the Holocaust and then sit and think about what companies are doing today just to make a little more money. It’s the same shit through and through.
I don’t need to find the Wikipedia article, I paid attention in school.
The companies participating in the current right-wing takeover are supporting fascists. The fascists are in power doing fascist things. None of these people are Nazis. If someone is serious about understanding what is happening in the US and how they can work to end it then they should, at the very least, understand the basic terminology of the topic.
Making provocative statements with simple minded black and white statements like ‘If you support Nazis, then you are a Nazi’ is ignorant, even if it gets upvoted. It’s spreading ignorance instead of knowledge, it is literally misinformation.
“Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.”
If you are arguing over the meaning of a word, then you’re missing the whole point. I’ve seen this whole argument play out 1000 times in the last several years, it goes nowhere.
Meaning and definition are objective conditions, but not in the way we are taught to think. Rather than “websters dictionary defines Nazi as…” you gotta understand that definitions and meaning are decided by power.
In these spaces, there is muddle headedness about many political topics, no doubt this is one. I’ve studied really good arguments about why its important to be accurate in our assessment of fascists, one of the best ones being that when a movement is misidentified as being fascist it creates confusion among regular people which aids fascists taking power. I think some of those effects/consequences are present in our society.
But are you fighting the right battle here? With these people?
I think your arguments are unconvincing and coming from a place of frustration. If you want to prove your point you have to actually prove it. And to do that you have to do more than say like “I paid attention in school.” In case you haven’t noticed, schools aren’t doing too great, and don’t exactly teach the unvarnished truth. It is a very politicized curriculum in a depoliticized environment where you start each day pledging allegiance to the same flag Trump admin fascists earnestly and tearfully wrap around their $5000 sharkskin shoulders
Words and facts have meaning. Reality isn’t some malleable thing you can twist for political advantage.
This kind of rhetoric, caring more about political “winning” than reality, is toxic to any political movement. Look at what happened to the right when they let these kinds of people into the majority. Lies are nearly exclusively the tools that they use to manipulate their base.
Once you’ve untethered yourself from reality and are living in a world of memes and spin, you can be convinced to support anything. Anyone who promotes this kind of pragmatic misinformation isn’t helping, it’s making the left more like MAGA.
I don’t need to prove that they’re not Nazi’s. Nobody actually thinks they are a 1930s political party from Germany. Everyone has just accepted that it’s better to get a rhetorical win than to address reality. They are wrong.
No, you misunderstand me. When we define things purely objectively, especially language, then we are not dealing with reality. The meaning of words is inherently political, it is about power. This is obvious.
10 years ago, “woke” was a strictly leftist term. But the meaning has changed because of politics and power, it at least has a double meaning now. The fact is, reality isn’t purely objective, it is objective and subjective. Being overly objective is just as much an error as being overly subjective.
A relevant example is the history of Italy. Italy was divided until the risorgimento period in the 1800s. Previously it was all cut up into feudal city states that each had separate local dialects. It is a perfect study in how language and meaning spreads via political power. What is considered the Italian language is actually the Florentine dialect, since Florence served as the political capital of Italy after the unification. Political movements throughout this period focused on reactionary education to spread their political agendas. Millions of illiterate Italians were taught to read, write and speak the Florentine dialect.
Why do Americans speak English instead of Cherokee, Sioux, Catawba or Navajo? Domination and perpetuation of class interests embodied by settler colonists.
Its well understood that history is written by the winners, but the same is true for dictionaries.
I actually agree with you a lot more than a lot of the people arguing with and down voting you. If you look further down in the thread, where someone says that political rhetoric is more important than accuracy, I disagree with them. I am very concerned with keeping our analysis as close to real conditions as possible. But confusing reality with pure, static, positivist objectivity is just another form of idealism.
Inaccuracy in political ideas creates confusion which fascists can use to seize power. What is needed is radical liberating education, not rhetoric. We don’t beat the oppressor by becoming like him.
Definitely a time and place for rhetoric, polemics, bending the stick. But its not across the board more important, its a tactic not a strategy
Misinformation for tactical purposes is still misinformation.
There’s already one party that’s willing to rewrite facts and misrepresent arguments in order to advance their ideology. Anyone who’s okay with becoming untethered to reality in order to “win” is part of the problem no matter which side of the political spectrum they’re on.
The world is more complicated than memes would have you believe
If you provide support for fascism and enable it’s spread you are a sympathizer or collaborator.
If I did, which I didn’t.
Not in this. Support of Nazis is approval of Nazism, making you a Nazi.
A person who was actually educated on the topic would call them fascists, not Nazis. Unless you think they’re literally the National Socialist German Workers’ Party of the 1930s then they’re not Nazis.
Calling fascists Nazis is a meme spread by the ignorant who’s only education is social media. Don’t confuse upvotes with being correct, the Internet is full of ignorant people and literal children.
OR as someone with this exact education you are talking about, we are calling them Nazis because hey are closest to Neo-Nazis in their ideology and we call Neo-nazis “Nazis”.
Given you claimed education why are you not seeing this?
calling them nazi’s is not ignorance of what a nazi was.
it’s invoking direct comparison between someone and the explicit actions of the nazis among other fascist.
it’s sorta like claiming none can be called a dickhead because no one has a dick for a head
to argue agisnst the capability of comparison is to defend one of the two parties, so which nazi are you defending here?
More ignorant nonsense. This is the kind of reasoning that you get from only consuming social media.
The world isn’t divided into “everyone who agrees with me 100% on everything” and Nazis.
Ah yes, everyone who defends Palestine are supporters of Hamas no?
Too bad the other side won’t give you the same deference you give the Nazi, oops I meant the Neo Nazis, or no wait the Fascists.
This is all about optics and if calling them Nazi works to any degree, I could care less about semantics.
Consider conservatives care exactly zero percent about semantics, it seems like your personal crusade to correct every reference from Nazi to Fascist is foolhardy to say the least.
Uh, no they’re not.
You’re way off the mark if you’re trying to attribute right-wing talking points to me.
You are clearly trying to personalize this and missing the point entirely.
No, I am not saying you said that. Cheers!
If your point is that the right mischaracterizes things and twists the truth for political advantage, then I agree with you.
I’m saying that anyone that’s doing that is wrong, no matter which ‘side’ they are on. Lying and spinning the truth is toxic to political discourse and should be discouraged even when it is unpopular (as here).
“Everyone I disagree with is an ignorant child” huh?
“I make bad faith misrepresentations of what other people say, but that’s okay because I get upvotes and that’s what matters in the world”
Go find the Wikipedia article about companies that participated in the Holocaust and then sit and think about what companies are doing today just to make a little more money. It’s the same shit through and through.
I don’t need to find the Wikipedia article, I paid attention in school.
The companies participating in the current right-wing takeover are supporting fascists. The fascists are in power doing fascist things. None of these people are Nazis. If someone is serious about understanding what is happening in the US and how they can work to end it then they should, at the very least, understand the basic terminology of the topic.
Making provocative statements with simple minded black and white statements like ‘If you support Nazis, then you are a Nazi’ is ignorant, even if it gets upvoted. It’s spreading ignorance instead of knowledge, it is literally misinformation.
They’re fascists.
“Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.”
Jean Paul Sartre
If you are arguing over the meaning of a word, then you’re missing the whole point. I’ve seen this whole argument play out 1000 times in the last several years, it goes nowhere.
Meaning and definition are objective conditions, but not in the way we are taught to think. Rather than “websters dictionary defines Nazi as…” you gotta understand that definitions and meaning are decided by power.
In these spaces, there is muddle headedness about many political topics, no doubt this is one. I’ve studied really good arguments about why its important to be accurate in our assessment of fascists, one of the best ones being that when a movement is misidentified as being fascist it creates confusion among regular people which aids fascists taking power. I think some of those effects/consequences are present in our society.
But are you fighting the right battle here? With these people?
I think your arguments are unconvincing and coming from a place of frustration. If you want to prove your point you have to actually prove it. And to do that you have to do more than say like “I paid attention in school.” In case you haven’t noticed, schools aren’t doing too great, and don’t exactly teach the unvarnished truth. It is a very politicized curriculum in a depoliticized environment where you start each day pledging allegiance to the same flag Trump admin fascists earnestly and tearfully wrap around their $5000 sharkskin shoulders
Words and facts have meaning. Reality isn’t some malleable thing you can twist for political advantage.
This kind of rhetoric, caring more about political “winning” than reality, is toxic to any political movement. Look at what happened to the right when they let these kinds of people into the majority. Lies are nearly exclusively the tools that they use to manipulate their base.
Once you’ve untethered yourself from reality and are living in a world of memes and spin, you can be convinced to support anything. Anyone who promotes this kind of pragmatic misinformation isn’t helping, it’s making the left more like MAGA.
I don’t need to prove that they’re not Nazi’s. Nobody actually thinks they are a 1930s political party from Germany. Everyone has just accepted that it’s better to get a rhetorical win than to address reality. They are wrong.
No, you misunderstand me. When we define things purely objectively, especially language, then we are not dealing with reality. The meaning of words is inherently political, it is about power. This is obvious.
10 years ago, “woke” was a strictly leftist term. But the meaning has changed because of politics and power, it at least has a double meaning now. The fact is, reality isn’t purely objective, it is objective and subjective. Being overly objective is just as much an error as being overly subjective.
A relevant example is the history of Italy. Italy was divided until the risorgimento period in the 1800s. Previously it was all cut up into feudal city states that each had separate local dialects. It is a perfect study in how language and meaning spreads via political power. What is considered the Italian language is actually the Florentine dialect, since Florence served as the political capital of Italy after the unification. Political movements throughout this period focused on reactionary education to spread their political agendas. Millions of illiterate Italians were taught to read, write and speak the Florentine dialect.
Why do Americans speak English instead of Cherokee, Sioux, Catawba or Navajo? Domination and perpetuation of class interests embodied by settler colonists.
Its well understood that history is written by the winners, but the same is true for dictionaries.
I actually agree with you a lot more than a lot of the people arguing with and down voting you. If you look further down in the thread, where someone says that political rhetoric is more important than accuracy, I disagree with them. I am very concerned with keeping our analysis as close to real conditions as possible. But confusing reality with pure, static, positivist objectivity is just another form of idealism.
Effective rhetoric is more important than accuracy
Inaccuracy in political ideas creates confusion which fascists can use to seize power. What is needed is radical liberating education, not rhetoric. We don’t beat the oppressor by becoming like him.
Definitely a time and place for rhetoric, polemics, bending the stick. But its not across the board more important, its a tactic not a strategy
Misinformation for tactical purposes is still misinformation.
There’s already one party that’s willing to rewrite facts and misrepresent arguments in order to advance their ideology. Anyone who’s okay with becoming untethered to reality in order to “win” is part of the problem no matter which side of the political spectrum they’re on.