It’s important to remember that the headline refers to the group Palestine action, which has carried out vandalisation of historical pieces, occupations of property, destruction etc (see here). So it’s a group that fits the UK definition of an extremist group.
Some political groups (or even branches of them) can be political cults trapping members with coercive control It’s not always idealistic well meaning people. The court that decreed them an unlawful group will have seen a lot of info we didn’t.
I think we need to look deeper than the headline
It’s important to remember that the headline refers to the group Palestine action
Coming into this thread, thinking that you couldn’t legally support Palestine in the UK anymore, I feel like the headline was just a bit misleading.
Yep it’s total clickbait, it’s bordering on misinformation
It’s rather misleading, yeah, but also, “technically correct”?
While we are clearly discussing an actual criminal group and not just people protesting for Palestine, the implications from a decision like that are a bit wider.
Civil disobedience is a crucial tool for democracy, but it’s easy for that to be taken too far.
And at this time that Russia is waging a shadow war in Europe, we probably should be little wary of any even paramilitary-esque groups, despite how important it is to protest the genocide in Gaza.
Surely there’s still plenty of legal ways to do that?
Sorry I’m not sure I understand. Are you saying that the criminal group shouldn’t be banned because the genocide is wrong?
No, I’m not saying that.
It’s just sometimes easy to smudge proper protesters with criminal groups, and historically that has happened a fair bit.
Like people can make a new organisation and try to step away from the criminal one, but also what’s to prevent the criminal element from joining them as well, and then the same justification can be used to ban that group and on and on and on.
So honestly defining the point at which it could be argued to be suppression of political ideas is very hard to pinpoint, imo.
I understand your concerns. The courts need a lot of evidence to do that though, and it’s a long process. So realistically it doesn’t happen unless it has to
Yeah, I’m just a tad worried, that’s all. I’m not saying it’s a slippery slide.
Just you know. It’s not been a great direction the world’s been going so…
By that very definition the US insurrectionists should be reintroduced to jail
I’d personally class that as terrorism. And they absolutely should be in jail.
Nonviolent direct action has earned them the label “terrorists.”
“The closer the collapse of the Empire, the crazier its laws are.”
Marcus Tullius CiceroSomeoneGrrrrr, he very likely didn’t say that.
The closest to it I could find is “The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws” by Tacitus (The Annals of Imperial Rome).
Cicero lived at the end of the republic, his problem wasn’t too many laws…
Bang on mate. It’s here in the “Misattributed” section https://en.m.wikiquote.org/wiki/Cicero
When the sentence is the same for non-violent protest and for actual terrorism, don’t be surprised if things get more extreme quickly.
Just more newspeak, like Trump calling everything he posts online “truths” while being nothing but lie after lie.
Just to be clear because everybody seems to be missing this point.
Palestinian Action, is an organisation. Membership of that group is banned, it is not illegal to support Palestinians or to call out Israel’s genocide. The government doesn’t like it when you do, but it’s not actually illegal for you to do it.
This organisation broke into a UK air force base in order to protest. They are not being charged because they protested, they’re being charged for breaking in and damaging a lot of military equipment. I think it’s a bit far to call them terrorists, but you can sort of see the government’s point, if you squint.
The UK government does however absolutely deserve to get it in the neck for their support of Israel. Labour have had a pretty awkward relationship with Israel in particular and anti-Semitism in general for a long time, and they’re now keen to be seen as supporters, but there are limits.
Thank you for this clarification. This is an extremely important context. “Palestine Action” is the particular name of a very specific organization, so the title of the article is obviously a bit misleading.
Still very worrying and more than a bit concerning, though. Here’s to hoping for a future strengthening of UK speech laws. Though, frankly, I’m not so sure about US speech laws anymore. Cheers.
Yes and I support that particular organization and the actions they perform. From what it sounds like reading the article, this very comment makes me a criminal in the UK
God bless the first amendment 🦅🇺🇲
I think it’s a bit far to call them terrorists,
Did you mean “a bit unfair”? Because I don’t see how anybody would be terrorized by this. It’s clearly illegal but using terrorism here is very problematic, especially since what the military does to people in the middle easy is actual terrorism but not called that.
Afaik the “anti-Semitism in Labour” was basically a made up smear by the Labour Party themselves to prevent Jeremy Corbyn getting elected. Not sure about other instances though.
They even forbid the playing of “Don’t cry for me Argentina” during the wer to protect their Malvinas colony.
That would have been the Conservatives though. The Conservatives under Thatcher were in power during the Falklands war.
Same as in the US, that doesn’t matter.
They will always support their regime wars.
R/D in the US or Labour/Cons in the UK.
Warcriminal Blair is a good example.The actions one political party are irrelevant to the actions of another political party. Especially over the course of such time.
If you want to make the arguement that the labour party are warmongering then there’s much that you can do to make that arguement but to equate the current situation to the Falklands war is disingenuous at absolute best.
you are wrong
Yeah, they lost an election over an antisemitism row a few years ago and have chosen the worst possible moment in history to start overcompensating for it.
It should be noted that it was the “please stop murdering children” kind of “antisemitism”, not real antisemitism.
They are not being charged because they protested, they’re being charged for breaking in and damaging a lot of military equipment. I think it’s a bit far to call them terrorists, but you can sort of see the government’s point, if you squint.
Out of curiosity, I looked up the US Federal definition of terrorism
definition
- the term “domestic terrorism” means activities that-
- involve acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State;
- appear to be intended-
- to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;
- to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or
- to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and
- occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the United States
Due to the element danger to human life, their definition wouldn’t fit.
However, the UK legal definition
definition
- In this Act “terrorism” means the use or threat of action where—
- the action falls within subsection (2),
- the use or threat is designed to influence the government [or an international governmental organisation][1] or to intimidate the public or a section of the public, and
- the use or threat is made for the purpose of advancing a political, religious [, racial][2] or ideological cause.
- Action falls within this subsection if it—
- involves serious violence against a person,
- involves serious damage to property,
- endangers a person’s life, other than that of the person committing the action,
- creates a serious risk to the health or safety of the public or a section of the public, or
- is designed seriously to interfere with or seriously to disrupt an electronic system.
- The use or threat of action falling within subsection (2) which involves the use of firearms or explosives is terrorism whether or not subsection (1)(2) is satisfied.
- In this section—
- “action” includes action outside the United Kingdom,
- a reference to any person or to property is a reference to any person, or to property, wherever situated,
- a reference to the public includes a reference to the public of a country other than the United Kingdom, and
- “the government” means the government of the United Kingdom, of a Part of the United Kingdom or of a country other than the United Kingdom.
- In this Act a reference to action taken for the purposes of terrorism includes a reference to action taken for the benefit of a proscribed organisation.
is wild: no danger to human life required, merely serious damage to property suffices!
The UK definition isn’t that wild - the ‘ra used to plant bombs and then phone it in. There’s still terror seeing a building explode - knowing the only reason there aren’t casualties is because the bombers, this time, called it in with 15 minutes on the fuse.
- the term “domestic terrorism” means activities that-
Codifying your genocide support into law. Nice.
If there is ever justice for Palestine the trials will be short. These bastards are so proud of their support for genocide.
if they promise to only paint things orange on military bases i think that’s ok
we’ll take their word for it
The harder they push their pro-Israel agenda, the more anti-Israel everyone is going to get.
You can’t bully us into supporting a genocidal regime.
My fucking brain is so fried.
Both my parents were in World War II. They fought against fascism. I was brought up to feel for what happened to the Jews during that war. Now all I see is that they seem to be being worse than the actual Nazis.
Israel =/= the “Jews”.
Israel’s founders were actually very prejudiced against Jews that survived the holocaust. And much more against the ones that didn’t actually…
Louder for the people in the back!
Zionists = religious nationalists / colonialists / fascists
Anti-zionists = anti-all-of-the-above
The Jewish ethnic/religious part is completely irrelevant. There are many thousands of non-jews who support Israel’s genocide, as evidenced by this batshit draconian illegitimate law. The UK/USA likely created Israel solely to destabilize the region and have an ally in the middle of the oil they needed. Within the next decade they then overthrew Irans democratically elected socialist leader because he wanted to expel British Petroleum and nationalise production (like Norway has been doing for decades).
If you just hate jews you’re some flavor of fascist or religious nationalist, so no better than zionists or any of the criminals who created this mess.
Do not conflate Jewish people with Israel
That is a very important distinction
I guess I am ignorant in that respect. When I was taught back in the 60’s it was taught as the Jewish people and all dissidents, disabled and whoever else the nazi’s wanted out of the way.
I said what I did because in today’s world the labeling matters between Jewish people and zionists. Not because of anything that happened in WWII, but rather because you can condemn what the people in Israel are doing in Palestine and it has nothing to do with their faith.
However, there are people who will call you anti semetic for doing that and it’s just not true.
Yeah, nah.
The only people who win when you conflate Israel with all Jewish people are Zionists and Neo-Nazis.
They are doing this because Palestine Action has been incredibly effective. They have already forced the closure of two factories in England that produce arms for Israeli defense company Elbit and forced Barclays Bank to divest through sustained sabotage campaigns. No person has been hurt by their actions, yet these actions have cost the genocide supporters millions of pounds and caused months-long disruptions to the production of weapons used in ethnic clean songs around the globe (Elbit weapons are fueling not just the Palestine ethnic cleaning, but Kashmir and DRC, too).
There are few things I like about being an American, but one of them is the first amendment. It doesn’t always work, and Trump is sure to try some shit like this soon, but at least I know for now I won’t go to prison for saying that I do indeed support Palestine Action
Looks like the UK is going down the American road here. It’s time for all those UK citizens that said, “Rise up now!” to Americans months ago…time to rise up! Give us a great example!
Oh, you can’t because you have to work for a living? How about that…
Going down?
I hate evil.
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Come and get me!!!
2020ish…Two Presidents team up to create a world without Palestinians.
1940ish…Two dictators team up to create a world without Jews.
The Met statement (https://news.met.police.uk/news/update-on-policing-in-london-following-proscription-of-palestine-action-499157) includes a ‘report your neighbour’ statement; "If you see material supporting terrorism online report it – visit www.gov.uk/ACT
You can also report suspicious activity by contacting the police in confidence on 0800 789 321."
Use this information wisely.
Feeding, housing and guarding someone for 14 years has got to be ridiculously expensive. All for uttering a few words.
Do prisoners in the UK do slave labor like in the US?
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Fuck Israel, genocidal scum!
Let me refine: “Fuck the Israeli government!” I have no beef with the country / people insofar as they hate their genocidal government.
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Brainwash is real. However, I am disappointed that you completely ignored the “insofar” limitation to my statement.
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“So far” has a different meaning and is incorrect here. “insofar” is the correct word, meaning “to the extent”
Really important distinction
Oh 99% (quite a bit less of course) of Israelis support genocide, then fuck Israel! No, you don’t throw babies out with bath water, even when they’re the worst and you’re mad as you should be.
Fuck any genocidal Israeli assholes, but Israel is too big to go blanket on them like this.
Why aren’t we antisemitic, b/c we know what words mean and we’re not antisemitic. Let’s talk like both those are true too.
Netanyahu should lick my pickled taint until he stops murdering kids
Judging by the mixed reactions my comment got, sadly half the people either don’t get it or they are anti-semites :(
insofar as they hate their genocidal government.
Recent polling shows only 19% of the Israeli population don’t support the genocide
So what? You’re gonna lump them in with the rest just because they were born there?
No, nothing like that, just wanting to clarify that it’s not a case of a rogue government going against popular opinion. Genocide is very popular in Israeli society, to the point that, if you ever talk to an anti-genocide Israeli, they tend to feel like political outcasts.
IMO, Israel is unusual because a disproportionate amount of the population are migrants who moved there specifically because they support the genocidal project, and people who were born there but oppose the project are far more likely than average to be able to move to another country and get out.
I think you are mixing the early stages of the state of Israel - certainly involving displacement and violence against Palestinian natives - with the recurring outbursts of Apartheid and crimes against humanity. There were calm phases in Israel, and many people moved there without genocidal actions ever being part of the public perception.
There was never a time where Israel was not an colonialist and implicitly genocidal project. There also haven’t been “outbursts” of apartheid and crimes against humanity; those have been a constant at all times.
and this is now where you are bordering hard if not delving into antisemitism :/ I have no desire to speak with you any further.
UK , USA , who’s next ???
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I support Palestine action
Righto chap, hop in the prison lorry then!
