It’s important to remember that the headline refers to the group Palestine action, which has carried out vandalisation of historical pieces, occupations of property, destruction etc (see here). So it’s a group that fits the UK definition of an extremist group.
Some political groups (or even branches of them) can be political cults trapping members with coercive control It’s not always idealistic well meaning people. The court that decreed them an unlawful group will have seen a lot of info we didn’t.
I think we need to look deeper than the headline
By that very definition the US insurrectionists should be reintroduced to jail
I’d personally class that as terrorism. And they absolutely should be in jail.
It’s important to remember that the headline refers to the group Palestine action
Coming into this thread, thinking that you couldn’t legally support Palestine in the UK anymore, I feel like the headline was just a bit misleading.
Yep it’s total clickbait, it’s bordering on misinformation
It’s rather misleading, yeah, but also, “technically correct”?
While we are clearly discussing an actual criminal group and not just people protesting for Palestine, the implications from a decision like that are a bit wider.
Civil disobedience is a crucial tool for democracy, but it’s easy for that to be taken too far.
And at this time that Russia is waging a shadow war in Europe, we probably should be little wary of any even paramilitary-esque groups, despite how important it is to protest the genocide in Gaza.
Surely there’s still plenty of legal ways to do that?
Sorry I’m not sure I understand. Are you saying that the criminal group shouldn’t be banned because the genocide is wrong?
No, I’m not saying that.
It’s just sometimes easy to smudge proper protesters with criminal groups, and historically that has happened a fair bit.
Like people can make a new organisation and try to step away from the criminal one, but also what’s to prevent the criminal element from joining them as well, and then the same justification can be used to ban that group and on and on and on.
So honestly defining the point at which it could be argued to be suppression of political ideas is very hard to pinpoint, imo.
I understand your concerns. The courts need a lot of evidence to do that though, and it’s a long process. So realistically it doesn’t happen unless it has to
Yeah, I’m just a tad worried, that’s all. I’m not saying it’s a slippery slide.
Just you know. It’s not been a great direction the world’s been going so…
I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action I support Palestine Action
Come and get me!!!
2020ish…Two Presidents team up to create a world without Palestinians.
1940ish…Two dictators team up to create a world without Jews.
the group broke into RAF Brize Norton, vandalizing and damaging two Royal Air Force Airbus A330 MRTT refuelling planes by spraying paint into their engines
Doing extremistic things and being surprised to be classified as extremists… Ahm… Alright…
will be illegal to say “I support Palestine Action”
Just say “I support Palestine” instead. Problem solved… Saves oxygen and could have prevented the Lemmy post.
This is actually a big deal. They’ve been proscribed as terrorists in the same way as ISIS, Hezbollah, Atomwaffen etc.
They are a direct action protest group, and they are criminals (at least the members that vandalised property) but they aren’t terrorists. And now, under UK law, expressing support for them is an offence. This is a huge misuse of terrorism legislation. 27 people were arrested yesterday for recording their support for Palestine Action.
The Met statement (https://news.met.police.uk/news/update-on-policing-in-london-following-proscription-of-palestine-action-499157) includes a ‘report your neighbour’ statement; "If you see material supporting terrorism online report it – visit www.gov.uk/ACT
You can also report suspicious activity by contacting the police in confidence on 0800 789 321."
Use this information wisely.
Just to be clear because everybody seems to be missing this point.
Palestinian Action, is an organisation. Membership of that group is banned, it is not illegal to support Palestinians or to call out Israel’s genocide. The government doesn’t like it when you do, but it’s not actually illegal for you to do it.
This organisation broke into a UK air force base in order to protest. They are not being charged because they protested, they’re being charged for breaking in and damaging a lot of military equipment. I think it’s a bit far to call them terrorists, but you can sort of see the government’s point, if you squint.
The UK government does however absolutely deserve to get it in the neck for their support of Israel. Labour have had a pretty awkward relationship with Israel in particular and anti-Semitism in general for a long time, and they’re now keen to be seen as supporters, but there are limits.
Can someone explain why so many countries support what’s happening in Palestine? Whats going on behind the scenes here?
Let’s be honest: No country would act different from Israel when facing a situation as with Gaza. No country could tolerate an attack like Oct 7th on its territory, esp with everything that happened before with all the rocket and suicide attacks. Just think about how the Americans reacted to 9/11. They started bombing Afghanistan and Iraq even if both countries really didn’t have much to do with 9/11. In this case it would be a scenario like “9/11 was done by a narco cartel in a small part of Mexico where central authority lost control” or something like that.
Combine it with the fact that all western states have no sympathies for islamist extremists like Hamas, because they are not muslim and also because most western states suffered from islamist attacks. Most states also see Hamas (an Hezbollah) as an Iranian proxy militia (which they are) and have also no sympathies to Iran, its theocratic dictatorship, its nuclear program and its military alliance with Russia.
I don’t think this is honesty because you are only addressing Hamas. Of course any nation would respond to an Oct. 7th type event, but Israel has very obviously gone far beyond that. The pogroms in the West Bank for example, there’s no connection between Hamas and the villages being emptied and seized. Smotrich and his ilk have been very explicit about the intent of Israeli actions.
I do think the situation is more complicated than Lemmy would have you believe.
Both Iran and Hamas have been geopolitical issues for a long time. And it’s worth remembering that all of this was kicked off by a large scale terrorist attack perpetrated by Hamas.
It’s also worth noting that Iran is a Russian puppet, and Europe obviously has some “neighbor problems” with Russia at the moment, so there’s a sort of baked in desire to oppose their vassal states.
And, while I think everyone would agree that the loss of civilian life is terrible, there is a huge amount of misinformation that makes it hard to be sure what’s going on. Hamas does have a long history of screwing over the civilian Palestinian population to further it’s political goals, and so people are willing to give Israel a little more credence than they deserve when they claim things like “Hamas was hiding in that hospital” or “we’re blocking aid because Hamas is hoarding it all to drive up tensions” or “it was Hamas who shot those civilians,” because it actually wouldn’t be the first time any of that had credibly happened. Something of a boy-cried-wolf scenario.
Add into that genuine desire to combat real anti-Semitism that’s been a fallout of this whole situation (a problem that hits pretty close to home in Europe due to events of the past century), and you can see why some people might be a bit over-eager to support Israel in this conflict.
It’s worth noting there are no good guys here. Israel is obviously in the wrong, and are committing horrible atrocities. I think that much is plain on its face. But Hamas and Iran have both had “the destruction of the state of Israel” as stated policy goals for the past 80 years. The reason Israel has the Iron Dome is because they’ve been getting missiles lobbed at them non-stop for decades.
And when there are no good guys, people tend to just align themselves with who they like more, or who they owe more to.
And it’s worth remembering that all of this was kicked off by a large scale terrorist attack perpetrated by Hamas.
This is insane when Israel was killing Palestinians years before Hamas even existed.
The Nakba happened 40 years before they existed.
Israel has commited genocide and ethnic cleansing since the first day it was conceived and reducing this to “both sides are bad” because the Palestinian way of resisting is not perfect is not an fair assessment of the situation.
This is a great example why we should be really careful discussing history here. Yes, the Nakba did happen. But what did happen before the Nakba? The arab attack on Israel right after it was founded. What did happen before that? The arab revolt from 1936-1939. What did happen after the Nakba? The deportation of Jews from nearly all arab countries. What did happen after that? Several wars, intifadas, terror acts from both sides and so on. There can’t be peace when you use history like that. Both sides can point to atrocities of the other side and continue fighting - to take your words, palestinians were killing Jews even before Israel was founded and Israel was attacked several times with a clear genocidal intention and there are people living in Israel who were ethnical cleansed out of arab states.
I feel like the saying “an eye for an eye makes the while world blind” fits here.
However, also,
If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor. If an elephant has its foot on the tail of a mouse, and you say that you are neutral, the mouse will not appreciate your neutrality.
— Desmond Tutu
Both Iran and Hamas have been geopolitical issues for a long time. And it’s worth remembering that all of this was kicked off by a large scale terrorist attack perpetrated by Hamas.
Propaganda is deeply effective because most people’s world events attention span is like a dog that sees a squirrel. History starts at the chosen squirrel event, and of course, geopolitics is viewed as “Us the good guys” vs. “those who fail to obey us”.
Your rant was praised as balanced, but is simply the official justification for colonial apartheid turned genocide our rulers, in submission to our own colonial masters, dictate upon us.
Most western countries have committed genocide or invasion in very recent history. Either in the context of WWII, colonialism or economic interests. Countries don’t magically change over night. Wouldn’t it be more surprising if they didn’t support their ally?
Most
westerncountries have committed genocide or invasion in very recent history. Either in the context of WWII, colonialism or economic interests.Countriespeople don’t magically change over night. Wouldn’t it be more surprising if they didn’t support their ally?There. Fixed that for you. Dont have to thank me, its good.
Nonviolent direct action has earned them the label “terrorists.”
“The closer the collapse of the Empire, the crazier its laws are.”
Marcus Tullius CiceroSomeone
Codifying your genocide support into law. Nice.
The harder they push their pro-Israel agenda, the more anti-Israel everyone is going to get.
You can’t bully us into supporting a genocidal regime.
My fucking brain is so fried.
Both my parents were in World War II. They fought against fascism. I was brought up to feel for what happened to the Jews during that war. Now all I see is that they seem to be being worse than the actual Nazis.
Israel =/= the “Jews”.
Israel’s founders were actually very prejudiced against Jews that survived the holocaust. And much more against the ones that didn’t actually…
Louder for the people in the back!
Zionists = religious nationalists / colonialists / fascists
Anti-zionists = anti-all-of-the-above
The Jewish ethnic/religious part is completely irrelevant. There are many thousands of non-jews who support Israel’s genocide, as evidenced by this batshit draconian illegitimate law. The UK/USA likely created Israel solely to destabilize the region and have an ally in the middle of the oil they needed. Within the next decade they then overthrew Irans democratically elected socialist leader because he wanted to expel British Petroleum and nationalise production (like Norway has been doing for decades).
If you just hate jews you’re some flavor of fascist or religious nationalist, so no better than zionists or any of the criminals who created this mess.
I hate evil.
It started during covid, but nobody cared because the people being locked up were anti vaxxers. It didn’t stop there. It never does.
Give us literally one example of someone being thrown in prison for expressing anti vax views, we’ll all wait.
these guys got arrested, but not sure if they served jail time.
According to the Evening Standard newspaper, the leaflet featured a cartoon of the Auschwitz death camp where more than 1.1 million people, mostly Jews, perished, with the sign above its gate changed from “Arbeit macht frei” (work sets you free) to “Vaccines are safe path to freedom”.
Yeah? Do you think that should be punishable with jail time?
Didn’t you say you weren’t sure they served jail time lol.
I mean didn’t even take the time to see it wasn’t from being antivax, it was because they were being assholes to others or the cops asking them to stop
The 73-year-old is suspected of malicious communications and public nuisance, and the 37-year-old was arrested on suspicion of a public order offence. They have been released on police bail until a date in early March.
I was asking if he thought they should
More that it’s more than them merely being antivax
Yes, they also expressed those views…
The 73-year-old is suspected of malicious communications and public nuisance, and the 37-year-old was arrested on suspicion of a public order offence. They have been released on police bail until a date in early March.
Hey look again from your own article it wasn’t because they were anti vax
Isn’t this the group that broke into a military airbase and damage several aircraft resulting in million of pounds worth of damages? I mean the security breach and the intent to maliciously damage the equipment is more than enough grounds to label the group as a terrorist group. If a right wing group or any other groups did this, everybody here would be calling them terrorists, and rightfully so. It makes sense for the UK to label this group as such, especially since they didn’t disavow the attack that happened.
The people who are trying to frame this as an attack on free speech are either full of shit and intentionally spreading misinformation or they’re ignorant enough to get their information from people who are full of shit and intentionally spreading misinformation. This is something that clearly has nothing to do with free speech.
No, damaging property doesn’t amount to terrorism. What world do you live in?
What most people understand as terrorism is the spreading of terror in the general population. Last time I checked, no one felt terrorized because some planes got spray painted.
Yes it does. In the UK, terrorism is defined more broadly, and the actions of this groups fall firmly within their legal definitions, hence why they were so swift with this designation.
Then you might have a tyrannical government. In that case, definitions should be the least of your concerns.
There’s literally nothing tyrannical about this situation.
On one hand, you have a democratic country, the UK, that has voted in a set of well defined laws that clearly outline what terrorism means, what can be considered as terrorism, and what the consequences are for terrorist acts. These legal parameters have been established law for decades.
On the other hand, you have an activist group, Palestinian Action, that knowing and intentionally chose to violate these laws by illegally sneaking into an RAF base and intentionally damaging military equipment for political purposes.
Considering how this is a malicious act of sabotage, a breach of national security, and an attempt to undermine the British state, this organization fits the criteria to be designated as a terrorist group. Because of this British politicians, quickly employed the established terrorism laws to give them the designation. Not only because what they did is considered terrorism in the country, but also because they don’t want to set a precedent that this type of action gets a pass. They wanted to make it clear that such actions are an unacceptable red line, and those who cross will be swiftly punished.
So in essence. There were laws established democratically, a group intentionally violated them, and they’re now facing the consequences of doing so. The UK is not censoring their activism cause, they’re going after other groups that didn’t do anything wrong, and this group is not being punished over any free speech grounds. Calling this tyranny is ignorance.
Fuck Israel, genocidal scum!
Let me refine: “Fuck the Israeli government!” I have no beef with the country / people insofar as they hate their genocidal government.
Really important distinction
Oh 99% (quite a bit less of course) of Israelis support genocide, then fuck Israel! No, you don’t throw babies out with bath water, even when they’re the worst and you’re mad as you should be.
Fuck any genocidal Israeli assholes, but Israel is too big to go blanket on them like this.
Why aren’t we antisemitic, b/c we know what words mean and we’re not antisemitic. Let’s talk like both those are true too.
Netanyahu should lick my pickled taint until he stops murdering kids
Judging by the mixed reactions my comment got, sadly half the people either don’t get it or they are anti-semites :(
insofar as they hate their genocidal government.
Recent polling shows only 19% of the Israeli population don’t support the genocide
So what? You’re gonna lump them in with the rest just because they were born there?
No, nothing like that, just wanting to clarify that it’s not a case of a rogue government going against popular opinion. Genocide is very popular in Israeli society, to the point that, if you ever talk to an anti-genocide Israeli, they tend to feel like political outcasts.
IMO, Israel is unusual because a disproportionate amount of the population are migrants who moved there specifically because they support the genocidal project, and people who were born there but oppose the project are far more likely than average to be able to move to another country and get out.
I think you are mixing the early stages of the state of Israel - certainly involving displacement and violence against Palestinian natives - with the recurring outbursts of Apartheid and crimes against humanity. There were calm phases in Israel, and many people moved there without genocidal actions ever being part of the public perception.
There was never a time where Israel was not an colonialist and implicitly genocidal project. There also haven’t been “outbursts” of apartheid and crimes against humanity; those have been a constant at all times.
and this is now where you are bordering hard if not delving into antisemitism :/ I have no desire to speak with you any further.
i have bad news for you in regards to what israelis think about the genocide
Brainwash is real. However, I am disappointed that you completely ignored the “insofar” limitation to my statement.
Tbf I’ve never heard anybody say nor seen anyone type “insofar” in my life so I assume he or she just didn’t recognize the word; also you could have just as easily typed “so far”.
“So far” has a different meaning and is incorrect here. “insofar” is the correct word, meaning “to the extent”
