I try to take the same perspective on both. I take down any instance of the two slurs against ASPD on this site, the same as I do for the slur against NPD. And I do believe NPD is a disability. I wish I didn’t have this burning rage in My soul when I feel jealous about My partners and friends, and I wish My artificial sense of self didn’t burst apart into a hurricane when I get overwhelmed. It’s taken a lot of work for Me to gain as much control over My anger as I’ve achieved, and it’s still not as much as I want. NPD is also a disability because of how neurotypicals react to Me, when they gain a sense of it, even subconsciously. It’s the interaction of My being and the society around Me that creates the condition of being disabled. Gathering the right beings around Myself who don’t react poorly to My NPD has been as much a part of My healing as the internal work.
I don’t have as much experience with ASPD, so I’m certain I have blind spots, and grateful to you for pointing them out. Much of My knowledge comes from a couple of people I met online some years ago, who gained as much understanding of themselves by their label as I do by Mine. The diagnosis helped them. To Me, that is the most important signifier of whether a diagnostic label is good or bad. But I didn’t have a good relationship with either of those people. They were unable to trust Me, and attributed this instinct towards animosity to their disability. They wanted to be calmer and more trusting, but couldn’t. I can sure relate to that, and that’s what I try to keep in mind when I think of ASPD, rather than the disagreements between us.
With all mental disorders, I try to adopt a patient-centered mindset. Trump doesn’t have NPD, because the criteria aren’t the whole story. The criteria also have to harm or impair the patient. Trump is neither harmed nor impaired by his narcissistic traits. Likewise, if I were a prison psychologist and were asked to evaluate an anarchist revolutionary who is quite committed to their actions, I don’t believe I’d conclude they have ASPD regardless of how many traits they meet. If I met somebody who continually finds themself acting without thinking about laws or norms and then regretting it, and wishing they could be more mindful of social boundaries so as to improve their own wellbeing, I would be much more willing to consider an ASPD diagnosis. And I would be using this diagnosis as an aid to accessing more supports on the patient’s own terms. For example, I would gladly step up to the witness stand and testify that an altercation between My client and a cop was provoked by the cop’s reckless disregard for My client’s disability, and that My client is owed a suitable environment in which to rehabilitate, including properly trained staff.
The through-line I’m trying to draw here is that I believe diagnostic labels are social constructs which should exist to serve the wellbeing of the patient. And I have been given the impression through past interactions with ASPD-identifying people that the ASPD label has the capacity to do so. Therefore, this patient-centered idea of ASPD is the one I believe in.
To be clear, I absolutely agree that NPD is/has a real pathology, and is a disability. Under the hood, it’s most often a trauma-related disorder of self-security. Like Trump, I only don’t meet NPD criteria myself bc it doesn’t impair my life
I guess I’m mostly just surprised to see You taking ASPD at face value in the first place, unlike the critical way You approach NPD. I would expect that if one takes an anarcho-antirealist approach, the conclusion would be that the ASPD diagnosis doesn’t serve the individual, but rather serves the state, and ought to be discarded. I worry that normalizing the ASPD label is likely to subvert the notion that smashing the state is good and that people should do so without remorse.
I imagine, however, this difference in perspective comes down to a macro lens vs a micro lens. For an individual stuck with the diagnosis on their medical documentation, leaning into it and wielding it might be in their best interest. As their provider, however, I would encourage them not to identify with that label, and to let me write a rule out diagnosis for their file, removing the label from their documentation. Of course, if they disagreed, I would just pivot to trying to further foster the empowerment of it.
If I met someone like You described, finding themself acting without thinking, regretting it, and wishing they could better mind social boundaries to improve their wellbeing, but without an existing ASPD diagnosis, I would likely explore other relevant diagnoses, like ADHD, ASD, BPD, etc.
I’m not convinced that the version of ASPD I believe in is the mainstream one.
The mainstream perception is cunning manipulators worming their way into the echelons of high society so they can abuse people in their secret sex dungeon, after a childhood of burning ants and torturing squirrels. You know, Peter Wiggin.
What I see are working class folks whose ability to trust others has been worn away by parental abuse, such that concepts of working with others for the common benefit seem like some kind of trick to exploit or weaken them, at least on an instinctive level. People who do not feel that natural pull to get along with others around them, to soften disagreements, to drift towards the consensus opinion. People who would look at a cop, and would not instinctively see the weight of all society looming within this person as you and I would, not at first, but would instead see one individual and upon first instinct would use violence to overcome this obstacle, and would need to consciously remind themself that angering this one asshole has consequences. Someone who does not see the invisible fabric of society suffusing everyone around them, not due to a neurological difference, but due to a developmental missed milestone.
Many of the same symptoms as NPD, but where I am hyperaware of group loyalties and see these social bonds as potential threats, people with ASPD are AFAIK hypoaware of group loyalties and see individuals as potential threats. That’s just the impression I have from the few ASPD-identifying people I’ve known.
Hmm. I think maybe I have a fundamental misunderstanding of anarcho-antirealism? I’d suspect a large theoretical overlap between the former and illegalism, egoism, critical/anti-psychiatry, etc, but I’m surprised to see that we seem to have a fundamental difference of perspective here, on a narrow subject that manages to encapsulate all of the above
Maybe it’s my tankie bone telling me that those ASPD-identifying people don’t know what’s really in their own self interest. You respect their perspective as their reality (and demonstrate that by adopting it? or no?), whereas I would, at most, agree to disagree with those people. The latter, to me, feels antirealist, but I can see how this maybe isn’t in the true spirit of anarcho-antirealism.
I’m curious what You think about this
(2 narcissists try to determine who’s right: impossible edition)
I have not lived with ASPD. They have. Thus, they have access to data I will never have. For that reason, I extend a certain amount of trust in their conclusions. I do the same with many other minority stati I will never have.
Additionally, consider all of the political systems in the world that are smaller than states and capital. Like families, recreational clubs, communes. People with ASPD have difficulty participating in those, too.
I try to take the same perspective on both. I take down any instance of the two slurs against ASPD on this site, the same as I do for the slur against NPD. And I do believe NPD is a disability. I wish I didn’t have this burning rage in My soul when I feel jealous about My partners and friends, and I wish My artificial sense of self didn’t burst apart into a hurricane when I get overwhelmed. It’s taken a lot of work for Me to gain as much control over My anger as I’ve achieved, and it’s still not as much as I want. NPD is also a disability because of how neurotypicals react to Me, when they gain a sense of it, even subconsciously. It’s the interaction of My being and the society around Me that creates the condition of being disabled. Gathering the right beings around Myself who don’t react poorly to My NPD has been as much a part of My healing as the internal work.
I don’t have as much experience with ASPD, so I’m certain I have blind spots, and grateful to you for pointing them out. Much of My knowledge comes from a couple of people I met online some years ago, who gained as much understanding of themselves by their label as I do by Mine. The diagnosis helped them. To Me, that is the most important signifier of whether a diagnostic label is good or bad. But I didn’t have a good relationship with either of those people. They were unable to trust Me, and attributed this instinct towards animosity to their disability. They wanted to be calmer and more trusting, but couldn’t. I can sure relate to that, and that’s what I try to keep in mind when I think of ASPD, rather than the disagreements between us.
With all mental disorders, I try to adopt a patient-centered mindset. Trump doesn’t have NPD, because the criteria aren’t the whole story. The criteria also have to harm or impair the patient. Trump is neither harmed nor impaired by his narcissistic traits. Likewise, if I were a prison psychologist and were asked to evaluate an anarchist revolutionary who is quite committed to their actions, I don’t believe I’d conclude they have ASPD regardless of how many traits they meet. If I met somebody who continually finds themself acting without thinking about laws or norms and then regretting it, and wishing they could be more mindful of social boundaries so as to improve their own wellbeing, I would be much more willing to consider an ASPD diagnosis. And I would be using this diagnosis as an aid to accessing more supports on the patient’s own terms. For example, I would gladly step up to the witness stand and testify that an altercation between My client and a cop was provoked by the cop’s reckless disregard for My client’s disability, and that My client is owed a suitable environment in which to rehabilitate, including properly trained staff.
The through-line I’m trying to draw here is that I believe diagnostic labels are social constructs which should exist to serve the wellbeing of the patient. And I have been given the impression through past interactions with ASPD-identifying people that the ASPD label has the capacity to do so. Therefore, this patient-centered idea of ASPD is the one I believe in.
To be clear, I absolutely agree that NPD is/has a real pathology, and is a disability. Under the hood, it’s most often a trauma-related disorder of self-security. Like Trump, I only don’t meet NPD criteria myself bc it doesn’t impair my life
I guess I’m mostly just surprised to see You taking ASPD at face value in the first place, unlike the critical way You approach NPD. I would expect that if one takes an anarcho-antirealist approach, the conclusion would be that the ASPD diagnosis doesn’t serve the individual, but rather serves the state, and ought to be discarded. I worry that normalizing the ASPD label is likely to subvert the notion that smashing the state is good and that people should do so without remorse.
I imagine, however, this difference in perspective comes down to a macro lens vs a micro lens. For an individual stuck with the diagnosis on their medical documentation, leaning into it and wielding it might be in their best interest. As their provider, however, I would encourage them not to identify with that label, and to let me write a rule out diagnosis for their file, removing the label from their documentation. Of course, if they disagreed, I would just pivot to trying to further foster the empowerment of it.
If I met someone like You described, finding themself acting without thinking, regretting it, and wishing they could better mind social boundaries to improve their wellbeing, but without an existing ASPD diagnosis, I would likely explore other relevant diagnoses, like ADHD, ASD, BPD, etc.
I’m not convinced that the version of ASPD I believe in is the mainstream one.
The mainstream perception is cunning manipulators worming their way into the echelons of high society so they can abuse people in their secret sex dungeon, after a childhood of burning ants and torturing squirrels. You know, Peter Wiggin.
What I see are working class folks whose ability to trust others has been worn away by parental abuse, such that concepts of working with others for the common benefit seem like some kind of trick to exploit or weaken them, at least on an instinctive level. People who do not feel that natural pull to get along with others around them, to soften disagreements, to drift towards the consensus opinion. People who would look at a cop, and would not instinctively see the weight of all society looming within this person as you and I would, not at first, but would instead see one individual and upon first instinct would use violence to overcome this obstacle, and would need to consciously remind themself that angering this one asshole has consequences. Someone who does not see the invisible fabric of society suffusing everyone around them, not due to a neurological difference, but due to a developmental missed milestone.
Many of the same symptoms as NPD, but where I am hyperaware of group loyalties and see these social bonds as potential threats, people with ASPD are AFAIK hypoaware of group loyalties and see individuals as potential threats. That’s just the impression I have from the few ASPD-identifying people I’ve known.
Hmm. I think maybe I have a fundamental misunderstanding of anarcho-antirealism? I’d suspect a large theoretical overlap between the former and illegalism, egoism, critical/anti-psychiatry, etc, but I’m surprised to see that we seem to have a fundamental difference of perspective here, on a narrow subject that manages to encapsulate all of the above
Maybe it’s my tankie bone telling me that those ASPD-identifying people don’t know what’s really in their own self interest. You respect their perspective as their reality (and demonstrate that by adopting it? or no?), whereas I would, at most, agree to disagree with those people. The latter, to me, feels antirealist, but I can see how this maybe isn’t in the true spirit of anarcho-antirealism.
I’m curious what You think about this
(2 narcissists try to determine who’s right: impossible edition)
I have not lived with ASPD. They have. Thus, they have access to data I will never have. For that reason, I extend a certain amount of trust in their conclusions. I do the same with many other minority stati I will never have.
Additionally, consider all of the political systems in the world that are smaller than states and capital. Like families, recreational clubs, communes. People with ASPD have difficulty participating in those, too.