Well I was half joking, but it seems to me like you are promoting a pretty big double standard here. You start off by saying “We can start with motherfucking saturday morning cartoons where they clearly showed who the bad guys are and what it means to be a bad guy.” So you are clearly criticizing something you find fault with (aka problematic) about modern cartoons (I’m not sure what, I don’t really watch cartoons anymore) but turn around and say I shouldn’t criticize “Problematic” things in “iconic” programs. Then you turn around once more and criticize them your own self in that they were glorified toy commercials, which is a good point. Things can be problematic in more than one way.
I agree that we should teach kids right from wrong (who are the good guys and who are the bad guys), but if you then portray the U.S. Military as ‘The good guys’ I have a problem with that. I bet a lot of kids who grew up idolizing the Joes ended up joining the military themselves, only to be forced to help overthrow democratically elected leaders in Central and South America, or protecting the U.S.'s ability to buy oil or opium products for cheap by murdering brown folks in the middle east. In my view, the U.S. Military haven’t unambiguously been “the good guys” since 1945, and even then the way that war ended was problematic as hell, and I’m not joking about that.
It’s irrelevant that Scrooge is a Duck, the message that some billionaires aren’t the scum of the Earth is a dangerous message to put out to impressionable young minds- no matter how cutesy you make it look. Look at how many of us who grew up in that era now idolize Elon Musk or Bill Gates.
Yes, I understand that people have cherished memories of some of these shows (just like young people today will someday look back fondly on the shows you feel comfortable criticizing), but being able to look back at the past with the nostalgia Goggles off, and be honest about the things that shaped our values is a part of maturing and growing as people. If the only defense you have of such programs is that they are ‘cherished memories’- that seems weak af tbh.
And btw, you friend is absolutely right. Zootopia is 100% copaganda. Just like 1000 other TV programs and movies in our culture. The fact that portraying cops as unambiguous ‘good guys’ is far and away the norm, but even the mildest of critiques such as Zootopia being copoganda sticks out as silly to you is the reason why it’s important to call stuff like this out when we see it.
I’m really tired of losing because we can’t figure out what people actually need to hear to make the world better.
People need to hear and wake up to reality. Coddling reactionary fragile egos isn’t going to accomplish that. Unflinchingly evaluating where we are and how we got here is the only way to do that- even if it makes people slightly uncomfortable for a moment.
This entire spiel was another attempt at justifying making people wake up to a reality they don’t want to see or hear. I can’t understand how the current trendline doesn’t make every progressive or leftist back up and rethink everything we’re trying to do. We are seeing nazis marching with jackboots and we’re complaining about the jackboot industry. It’s fucking absurd.
I don’t have a double-standard, I have awareness that two conflicting things exist at the same time. There’s a huge difference. One is a condemnation of a way of unfair thinking, the other is nuance.
We are going to fucking LOSE EVERYTHING if we keep wokescolding people about the things they enjoy. It might already be too late.
It feels great when someone recognizes your points, and I do, but it’s like any weapon or tool, how you use it is going to have a major impact on our world. Stop trying to fix symptoms, it’s gotten us absolutely nowhere. Fix causes and seek outcomes, policing the minutia is literally killing us.
I can’t understand how the current trendline doesn’t make every progressive or leftist back up and rethink everything we’re trying to do. We are seeing nazis marching with jackboots and we’re complaining about the jackboot industry. It’s fucking absurd.
It’s not the boots we are criticizing but literally the fact that they are Nazis. You want us to refrain from calling a Nazi a Nazi for fear that it might hurt their fragile little egos and alienate them. You seem to think that racism, sexism, and bigotry at little, insignificant problems and if we just stop complaining about them it will go away.
Racism, sexism, and bigotry may not affect YOU, but I bet you can guess the people they do affect. The people complaining about those things aren’t just doing it to hear themselves whine. They are sick and fucking tired of being discriminated against, and they have every right to demand they be treated as equals.
Yes, there is going to be push-back from reactionaries. They’ve been pushing back hard against equal treatment for all humans since before the civil war- the fought a whole god damn war to stop it ffs. Could you imagine if the people on the side of freedom and basic human dignity had simply capitulated when they saw where demanding the slaves be free was heading?
They pushed back when women wanted to vote. They pushed back when minorities wanted equal rights. They pushed back when gay people demanded fair treatment. The only way decent folk have ever made progress is by fighting. The only way we will continue to progress is by demanding equality for all humans and accepting no compromise. Burying our heads in the sand and capitulating to the Nazi’s WILL NOT make the Nazi’s see the error of their ways and bring them to our side, they will see that as weakness and confirmation that they have the right of it.
The problem is one of LACK of Education. It’s not talking about these issues. We will never, ever gain freedom and equality if we ignore the reality for the people that bigotry effects. The problem isn’t women, or minorities, or lgbtq people demeaning fair treatment, it’s that the ruling class has convinced working class conservatives that they are the enemy. That it’s ‘woke’ people who are making their lives suck, and not the Billionaires who treat the working class as slave labor. Not the right wing politicians (and that includes Democrats) who raise taxes on the poorest of us and to give to top 10%. That immigrants- the group of people with the lowest crime rates, who pay way more in taxes than they see the benefit from are the ones making the economy bad and crime high.
The ruling class has been successfully sewing a rift between the “left” and “conservatives” with a propaganda and misinformation campaign that goes back over 100 years. To McCarthy and Hoover. They pit the working class whites against the socialists and communists- the very people who are trying to free them. And what’s your solution? To keep quiet about the propaganda? To shut up about social and economic injustice? To roll over and allow the modern day McCarthies and Hoovers to win? We have to expose the lie.
We have to find a way to unite the people, but if you think that the marginalized groups are going to trust and work alongside the ones complicit in their disenfranchisement without the others putting in the work, while they are still tools of the oppressors- I just don’t understand why you think they would or should do that.
policing the minutia is literally killing us.
Equality (economic and social) isn’t “the minutia”- it’s literally the entire fucking point. Equality doesn’t just benefit the ‘woke’ crowd, it literally benefits everyone other than the ruling class.
So what’s your plan for turning the country around. One that doesn’t involve expecting a revolution or someone else charming the whole country into suddenly having the values and principles we all want.
Facts:
Conservatism and hate is on the rise.
The left has been using the same tactics and talking points and attempts at raising awareness of social issues for decades and we’ve lost more freedoms and broad social respect in the last decade than we’ve gained.
There is an entire universe of people in the country who are having comfortable, happy lives while also condemning “wokeness” and whatever that means to them, so there’s no incentive to abandon this way of thinking.
If you really think banging the same drums forever and ever is going to eventually work, knock yourself out.
if you think that the marginalized groups are going to trust and work alongside the ones complicit in their disenfranchisement without the others putting in the work, while they are still tools of the oppressors- I just don’t understand why you think they would or should do that.
See this is the rhetoric that is holding us back. Whatever happens, we will still have to live next to the people who have anti-woke bumper stickers and are afraid of the “wrong” people in the bathroom. We won’t make lasting change if we don’t focus on the wealth divide that has made so many dumb fucks so vulnerable to fascism. If you can’t help but view them as malicious oppressors we’re never going to be able to exercise our actual power of intelligence and reason. It’s ridiculous how much fucking POWER we’re giving to the country’s least principled and most easily influenced population instead of actually just letting them be assholes, but making them OUR useful assholes. What lack of self-confidence does the left have broadly that we’re so afraid to do this? I’ve done it, it’s EASY.
If you genuinely think that continuing to harangue people that fucking Duck Tales is bad actually, you’re simply not winning the people to your side who you need. It’s dumb and I am not taking part in that kind of rhetoric ever again. We can make a class war SO EASILY but we get lost down these side-quests of “also, we have to include shaming people about their sports mascots and wearing leather and we have to make them feel ashamed they won’t date a trans girl, and here’s a list of other issues that we want to make these people aware of because we want vindication and validation far more than outcomes.”
Well I was half joking, but it seems to me like you are promoting a pretty big double standard here. You start off by saying “We can start with motherfucking saturday morning cartoons where they clearly showed who the bad guys are and what it means to be a bad guy.” So you are clearly criticizing something you find fault with (aka problematic) about modern cartoons (I’m not sure what, I don’t really watch cartoons anymore) but turn around and say I shouldn’t criticize “Problematic” things in “iconic” programs. Then you turn around once more and criticize them your own self in that they were glorified toy commercials, which is a good point. Things can be problematic in more than one way.
I agree that we should teach kids right from wrong (who are the good guys and who are the bad guys), but if you then portray the U.S. Military as ‘The good guys’ I have a problem with that. I bet a lot of kids who grew up idolizing the Joes ended up joining the military themselves, only to be forced to help overthrow democratically elected leaders in Central and South America, or protecting the U.S.'s ability to buy oil or opium products for cheap by murdering brown folks in the middle east. In my view, the U.S. Military haven’t unambiguously been “the good guys” since 1945, and even then the way that war ended was problematic as hell, and I’m not joking about that.
It’s irrelevant that Scrooge is a Duck, the message that some billionaires aren’t the scum of the Earth is a dangerous message to put out to impressionable young minds- no matter how cutesy you make it look. Look at how many of us who grew up in that era now idolize Elon Musk or Bill Gates.
Yes, I understand that people have cherished memories of some of these shows (just like young people today will someday look back fondly on the shows you feel comfortable criticizing), but being able to look back at the past with the nostalgia Goggles off, and be honest about the things that shaped our values is a part of maturing and growing as people. If the only defense you have of such programs is that they are ‘cherished memories’- that seems weak af tbh.
And btw, you friend is absolutely right. Zootopia is 100% copaganda. Just like 1000 other TV programs and movies in our culture. The fact that portraying cops as unambiguous ‘good guys’ is far and away the norm, but even the mildest of critiques such as Zootopia being copoganda sticks out as silly to you is the reason why it’s important to call stuff like this out when we see it.
People need to hear and wake up to reality. Coddling reactionary fragile egos isn’t going to accomplish that. Unflinchingly evaluating where we are and how we got here is the only way to do that- even if it makes people slightly uncomfortable for a moment.
This entire spiel was another attempt at justifying making people wake up to a reality they don’t want to see or hear. I can’t understand how the current trendline doesn’t make every progressive or leftist back up and rethink everything we’re trying to do. We are seeing nazis marching with jackboots and we’re complaining about the jackboot industry. It’s fucking absurd.
I don’t have a double-standard, I have awareness that two conflicting things exist at the same time. There’s a huge difference. One is a condemnation of a way of unfair thinking, the other is nuance.
We are going to fucking LOSE EVERYTHING if we keep wokescolding people about the things they enjoy. It might already be too late.
It feels great when someone recognizes your points, and I do, but it’s like any weapon or tool, how you use it is going to have a major impact on our world. Stop trying to fix symptoms, it’s gotten us absolutely nowhere. Fix causes and seek outcomes, policing the minutia is literally killing us.
It’s not the boots we are criticizing but literally the fact that they are Nazis. You want us to refrain from calling a Nazi a Nazi for fear that it might hurt their fragile little egos and alienate them. You seem to think that racism, sexism, and bigotry at little, insignificant problems and if we just stop complaining about them it will go away.
Racism, sexism, and bigotry may not affect YOU, but I bet you can guess the people they do affect. The people complaining about those things aren’t just doing it to hear themselves whine. They are sick and fucking tired of being discriminated against, and they have every right to demand they be treated as equals.
Yes, there is going to be push-back from reactionaries. They’ve been pushing back hard against equal treatment for all humans since before the civil war- the fought a whole god damn war to stop it ffs. Could you imagine if the people on the side of freedom and basic human dignity had simply capitulated when they saw where demanding the slaves be free was heading?
They pushed back when women wanted to vote. They pushed back when minorities wanted equal rights. They pushed back when gay people demanded fair treatment. The only way decent folk have ever made progress is by fighting. The only way we will continue to progress is by demanding equality for all humans and accepting no compromise. Burying our heads in the sand and capitulating to the Nazi’s WILL NOT make the Nazi’s see the error of their ways and bring them to our side, they will see that as weakness and confirmation that they have the right of it.
The problem is one of LACK of Education. It’s not talking about these issues. We will never, ever gain freedom and equality if we ignore the reality for the people that bigotry effects. The problem isn’t women, or minorities, or lgbtq people demeaning fair treatment, it’s that the ruling class has convinced working class conservatives that they are the enemy. That it’s ‘woke’ people who are making their lives suck, and not the Billionaires who treat the working class as slave labor. Not the right wing politicians (and that includes Democrats) who raise taxes on the poorest of us and to give to top 10%. That immigrants- the group of people with the lowest crime rates, who pay way more in taxes than they see the benefit from are the ones making the economy bad and crime high.
The ruling class has been successfully sewing a rift between the “left” and “conservatives” with a propaganda and misinformation campaign that goes back over 100 years. To McCarthy and Hoover. They pit the working class whites against the socialists and communists- the very people who are trying to free them. And what’s your solution? To keep quiet about the propaganda? To shut up about social and economic injustice? To roll over and allow the modern day McCarthies and Hoovers to win? We have to expose the lie.
We have to find a way to unite the people, but if you think that the marginalized groups are going to trust and work alongside the ones complicit in their disenfranchisement without the others putting in the work, while they are still tools of the oppressors- I just don’t understand why you think they would or should do that.
Equality (economic and social) isn’t “the minutia”- it’s literally the entire fucking point. Equality doesn’t just benefit the ‘woke’ crowd, it literally benefits everyone other than the ruling class.
So what’s your plan for turning the country around. One that doesn’t involve expecting a revolution or someone else charming the whole country into suddenly having the values and principles we all want.
Facts:
Conservatism and hate is on the rise.
The left has been using the same tactics and talking points and attempts at raising awareness of social issues for decades and we’ve lost more freedoms and broad social respect in the last decade than we’ve gained.
There is an entire universe of people in the country who are having comfortable, happy lives while also condemning “wokeness” and whatever that means to them, so there’s no incentive to abandon this way of thinking.
If you really think banging the same drums forever and ever is going to eventually work, knock yourself out.
See this is the rhetoric that is holding us back. Whatever happens, we will still have to live next to the people who have anti-woke bumper stickers and are afraid of the “wrong” people in the bathroom. We won’t make lasting change if we don’t focus on the wealth divide that has made so many dumb fucks so vulnerable to fascism. If you can’t help but view them as malicious oppressors we’re never going to be able to exercise our actual power of intelligence and reason. It’s ridiculous how much fucking POWER we’re giving to the country’s least principled and most easily influenced population instead of actually just letting them be assholes, but making them OUR useful assholes. What lack of self-confidence does the left have broadly that we’re so afraid to do this? I’ve done it, it’s EASY.
If you genuinely think that continuing to harangue people that fucking Duck Tales is bad actually, you’re simply not winning the people to your side who you need. It’s dumb and I am not taking part in that kind of rhetoric ever again. We can make a class war SO EASILY but we get lost down these side-quests of “also, we have to include shaming people about their sports mascots and wearing leather and we have to make them feel ashamed they won’t date a trans girl, and here’s a list of other issues that we want to make these people aware of because we want vindication and validation far more than outcomes.”