Thanks again for a fair reply, and specifically for the use of example which really helps to make it all easier. I think it’s mostly misunderstandings that would make our final position be discordant, but respecting the possibility of each other.
Direct democracy / Disassociation after a crime
This kinda regroups with the justice part i think. I’ll answer to both below.
Kids consenting / Kids abuse
Effectively, kids manipulation would be quite a problem, as well as manipulation of people in general. On the other hand, abuses committed on kids that are aware of those abuses could and are being greatly reduced when we stop considering their parents/teacher should have a full mastery of their lives.
I think that, as in our current societies, the best tool would be to have multiple groups dedicated to kids protection, that could follow kids education and step in when they feel there is some risk or anything, triggerring mediation processes.
Economics / Dencetralized distribution
First, even if economics were not the reason, it is true that the disassociation of any important group can be a problem, and food is a good one. One solution would be to have groups dedicated to feed everyone, as we already have.
Second, i think there is a slight misunderstanding here on the economics part. I’m not sure if free market can apply to what i think of if private property is reduced or abolished. In most anarchist systems, accumulation of wealth is seen as something to avoid, and then either prices should be fixed based on labour costs ony, either money use should be reduced to luxury goods or stopped entirely, either some other organization i’m not aware of. In both those systems, people provide the result of their labour in a non-wealth accumulative way, and expect people to do so in return. In this system, quitting the federation to start accumulating wealth would mean losing access to a free or cheap providing of services, which would be quite counter-intuitive. That is, unless you have ways to build a new federation or system that can function on itself, and then either it is purely some will of people to turn to an autonomous separate system, and that’s ok, either it preys on the needs and work of people unwilling to participate, and then you fall back to the fight against authoritarianism.
Economics / Degrowth
We agree that degrowth is not the most shared desire. We also agree that it would be a bad thing to impose it on people.
But again, i’ll probably pass for a nitpicking bastard, but not exactly “nobody wants to spend all day washing clothes by hand”. We can agree on “very few people wants to spend all day …” though, but for this very few, the system i’m talking about has a meaning. Another argument for degrowth is that it will be necessary in any way (the actual system relies heavily on fossil energies, the production of which should or has started to slowly decrease, so appart from a new tech / energy source, the economic system behind will probably decrease too). Degrowth advocates also advance that mass consumption and especially capitalism produces the needs with the products. For example, we don’t really need individual cars, except if living far from your work is the norm, We don’t really need complicated washing machines unless we have complicated clothes, etc.
So degrowth is effectively something that may stir people away from anarchism, and for understandable reasons. But on the other hand, it remains good for people who accept or advocate for it, and there are good arguments if you happen to have to convince people to accept it. I fully accept if you take it as an additional argument in disfavor of anarchism, as long as you accept that it’s not a complete dead end.
Economics / Money and labour
Well, i think we slightly disagree on what makes economy. I’m not sure what the exact definition of economy should be, but from what i guess, i’d make two categories. Some elements are kinda included in the very concept of economy and are there no matter what, even if in a very poor shape (i’d say organization, coordination, specialization, consumption). In that sense, there is some economy for gatherer/hunter societies. The other group is only needed for a good/growing/modern economy : technology, government, markets, capital, etc. They may be essential parts of some economies, but not of every form of them. I’d clearly put the workers in the first category, that is necessary in all forms of economy.
Now, i may misunderstand what you call economy, and it may be more than just the organization of labour. Then, i’ll think i should have argued that it is not necessary as is, and simple organization of labour could suffice. The ability to product as much as capitalist societies would probably not be reached, but then we would fall back to the degrowth point.
Economics / Works and unwanted jobs
Same as for washing clothes by hand, i’d make a distinction between what people don’t want to do, and what they don’t accept to do. In anarchist societies, there may be multiple ways to fill in works that no one wants : volunteering is the most obvious one, and the one you seem to “attack” (you were not aggressive, i just don’t have a better word). Other ones, that can either be implemented from the start or considered fallbacks in case no one volunteers, are a rotation system or a random selection system. Every person able to do tasks could then partake. Now, it may rise some problems (like what if people have phobias, or really don’t want to do things), and as it usually is with anarchism, the answer lies in individual adjustments : either people could do another task in replacement, either they could skip the task entirely if people are okay with that, either they could be accompanied, either if they really are reward motivated, they could get a special treatment if people are okay with that, etc.
I’d also like to point out that, at least here in france (which i’d consider as capitalistic), people doing unwanted jobs are not rewarded with incentives like a handsome salary or good benefits package. They’re payed quite the same as most manual jobs, which is less than a lot of desk jobs. What drives them to do those jobs is the fear of not having a home or food.
Justice / Arbitrary + Bad faith actors
Answering to both your 1st and 4th paragraph on justice here, and the first part on direct democracy.
It seems at first a fine nuance to say that courts are there to provide the nuanced judgement needed foreach individual case, but i think it hides the fact that this necessarily happens (possibly in a bad way). Laws don’t apply themselves, and there is always someone to apply them, be it a judge, a cop, a bureaucrat, a mob, etc., and who decide how to apply them, be it severely, with clemency, abusively, etc.
Imo, laws are objectively providing an arbitrary reason for arbitrary decisions. It is indeed objective in the fact that it exists publicly, but the content of the law is decided arbitrarily (as in, by specific people and outside of context), and applying the law is making a personal, therefore arbitrary decision. Even if a machine were to apply it, the abrirary of people who created the law or built the machine would make the output arbitrary.
In the context i presented, no one is deciding the standard on a whim and pushing it onto others. There has to be an agreement between both parties, peoples who are mediating it, and optionally the communities it would apply to. If everyone is super friend with the murderer, there would not be a discussion in the first place. This is why i don’t consider this to be arbitrary : it is not pushed by someone onto another, but is rather a decision made in agreement with everyone it will apply to. This is based on the idea that the closest thing we can get to objectivity is multiple subjectivities, so the only way to escape arbitrary is to 1) avoid making general rules and 2) not letting a subset of person decide, but letting them all decide.
Justice / Criminals
One misunderstanding is that you assume that a cooperative criminal means a criminal that roams the street. This is not the case, they don’t just decide what happens to them if they are cooperative. It is an agreement with people, and apart from brain dead people, we could assume that they would like the criminal to be watched, or to go to a deradicalization institution, or anything that would significantly drop the chances of recidivism.
Now, you could say that a talented criminal could fool everyone long enough so that they agree to end those decisions at some point, but then it could happen in most judiciary systems, not just anarchist ones.
Good faith / Participation
I meant what i said about participation for people with bad “feelings/emotions” such as egoism or greed. It’s okay to have someone that gets more than the other in a community as long as other people are okay with that. It’s okay to have some meritocratic people who want to be rewarded based on their efforts inside a community. It just shouldn’t be imposed on people who don’t want it.
Now, for islamist/nazis/tankies, there is something quite different since they precisely want to impose it on people who reject it. Laws from a greater authority is not the only thing capable of stopping such groups from emerging. Education, discussion, negotiation and ultimately justice system that i described can be used as peaceful ways to prevent them. They’re not flawless, as are state solution, and it can come to violence in the end. But it’s also not pure tolerance and freedom of being a bad guy.
Multiplicity of states
My point is not that every state is the same, we obviously agree on this. It is not either that the entire concept of a state is bad because some failed. It is that in wars, genocides, repression, states are actually not failing : it is a part of their arsenal to maintain what you’d call stability and what i’d call their continuity.
I feel like the comparison with malpractice is unfair, because in malpractice it’s not the actual advantages of medicine that’s used to harm more. i’d more happily go with the example of the environment : states are like oil, it has a great list of advantages for humanity, and also has major disadvantages. Now to say if we should stop using oil entirely or just stop using it badly is another debate, and it’s okay to assume that wanting it to stop completely is dumb, but i feel like it’s more of a honest take since diasdvantages of oil are built into it.
Inevitability of monopoly of violence
I kinda disagree. I’d agree if you had said that violence is inevitable, but imo monopoly of violence is not built into humans. I’d agree to say that it’s built into our current societies, but as we humans, they change and evolve, so it’s not necessarily built in future societies. I still consider advocacy for monopoly of violence as radical, but i also recognize that it’s okay to be radical, and it’s a choice you have strong arguments for. I also thank you for your fair comments, you really try to understand something you don’t seem to know much, and that’s something i highly appreciate.
Thanks again for a fair reply, and specifically for the use of example which really helps to make it all easier. I think it’s mostly misunderstandings that would make our final position be discordant, but respecting the possibility of each other.
This kinda regroups with the justice part i think. I’ll answer to both below.
Effectively, kids manipulation would be quite a problem, as well as manipulation of people in general. On the other hand, abuses committed on kids that are aware of those abuses could and are being greatly reduced when we stop considering their parents/teacher should have a full mastery of their lives.
I think that, as in our current societies, the best tool would be to have multiple groups dedicated to kids protection, that could follow kids education and step in when they feel there is some risk or anything, triggerring mediation processes.
First, even if economics were not the reason, it is true that the disassociation of any important group can be a problem, and food is a good one. One solution would be to have groups dedicated to feed everyone, as we already have.
Second, i think there is a slight misunderstanding here on the economics part. I’m not sure if free market can apply to what i think of if private property is reduced or abolished. In most anarchist systems, accumulation of wealth is seen as something to avoid, and then either prices should be fixed based on labour costs ony, either money use should be reduced to luxury goods or stopped entirely, either some other organization i’m not aware of. In both those systems, people provide the result of their labour in a non-wealth accumulative way, and expect people to do so in return. In this system, quitting the federation to start accumulating wealth would mean losing access to a free or cheap providing of services, which would be quite counter-intuitive. That is, unless you have ways to build a new federation or system that can function on itself, and then either it is purely some will of people to turn to an autonomous separate system, and that’s ok, either it preys on the needs and work of people unwilling to participate, and then you fall back to the fight against authoritarianism.
We agree that degrowth is not the most shared desire. We also agree that it would be a bad thing to impose it on people.
But again, i’ll probably pass for a nitpicking bastard, but not exactly “nobody wants to spend all day washing clothes by hand”. We can agree on “very few people wants to spend all day …” though, but for this very few, the system i’m talking about has a meaning. Another argument for degrowth is that it will be necessary in any way (the actual system relies heavily on fossil energies, the production of which should or has started to slowly decrease, so appart from a new tech / energy source, the economic system behind will probably decrease too). Degrowth advocates also advance that mass consumption and especially capitalism produces the needs with the products. For example, we don’t really need individual cars, except if living far from your work is the norm, We don’t really need complicated washing machines unless we have complicated clothes, etc.
So degrowth is effectively something that may stir people away from anarchism, and for understandable reasons. But on the other hand, it remains good for people who accept or advocate for it, and there are good arguments if you happen to have to convince people to accept it. I fully accept if you take it as an additional argument in disfavor of anarchism, as long as you accept that it’s not a complete dead end.
Well, i think we slightly disagree on what makes economy. I’m not sure what the exact definition of economy should be, but from what i guess, i’d make two categories. Some elements are kinda included in the very concept of economy and are there no matter what, even if in a very poor shape (i’d say organization, coordination, specialization, consumption). In that sense, there is some economy for gatherer/hunter societies. The other group is only needed for a good/growing/modern economy : technology, government, markets, capital, etc. They may be essential parts of some economies, but not of every form of them. I’d clearly put the workers in the first category, that is necessary in all forms of economy.
Now, i may misunderstand what you call economy, and it may be more than just the organization of labour. Then, i’ll think i should have argued that it is not necessary as is, and simple organization of labour could suffice. The ability to product as much as capitalist societies would probably not be reached, but then we would fall back to the degrowth point.
Same as for washing clothes by hand, i’d make a distinction between what people don’t want to do, and what they don’t accept to do. In anarchist societies, there may be multiple ways to fill in works that no one wants : volunteering is the most obvious one, and the one you seem to “attack” (you were not aggressive, i just don’t have a better word). Other ones, that can either be implemented from the start or considered fallbacks in case no one volunteers, are a rotation system or a random selection system. Every person able to do tasks could then partake. Now, it may rise some problems (like what if people have phobias, or really don’t want to do things), and as it usually is with anarchism, the answer lies in individual adjustments : either people could do another task in replacement, either they could skip the task entirely if people are okay with that, either they could be accompanied, either if they really are reward motivated, they could get a special treatment if people are okay with that, etc.
I’d also like to point out that, at least here in france (which i’d consider as capitalistic), people doing unwanted jobs are not rewarded with
incentives like a handsome salary or good benefits package. They’re payed quite the same as most manual jobs, which is less than a lot of desk jobs. What drives them to do those jobs is the fear of not having a home or food.Answering to both your 1st and 4th paragraph on justice here, and the first part on direct democracy.
It seems at first a fine nuance to say that courts are there to
provide the nuanced judgement needed for each individual case, but i think it hides the fact that this necessarily happens (possibly in a bad way). Laws don’t apply themselves, and there is always someone to apply them, be it a judge, a cop, a bureaucrat, a mob, etc., and who decide how to apply them, be it severely, with clemency, abusively, etc.Imo, laws are objectively providing an arbitrary reason for arbitrary decisions. It is indeed objective in the fact that it exists publicly, but the content of the law is decided arbitrarily (as in, by specific people and outside of context), and applying the law is making a personal, therefore arbitrary decision. Even if a machine were to apply it, the abrirary of people who created the law or built the machine would make the output arbitrary.
In the context i presented, no one is deciding the standard on a whim and pushing it onto others. There has to be an agreement between both parties, peoples who are mediating it, and optionally the communities it would apply to. If everyone is super friend with the murderer, there would not be a discussion in the first place. This is why i don’t consider this to be arbitrary : it is not pushed by someone onto another, but is rather a decision made in agreement with everyone it will apply to. This is based on the idea that the closest thing we can get to objectivity is multiple subjectivities, so the only way to escape arbitrary is to 1) avoid making general rules and 2) not letting a subset of person decide, but letting them all decide.
One misunderstanding is that you assume that a cooperative criminal means a criminal that roams the street. This is not the case, they don’t just decide what happens to them if they are cooperative. It is an agreement with people, and apart from brain dead people, we could assume that they would like the criminal to be watched, or to go to a deradicalization institution, or anything that would significantly drop the chances of recidivism.
Now, you could say that a talented criminal could fool everyone long enough so that they agree to end those decisions at some point, but then it could happen in most judiciary systems, not just anarchist ones.
I meant what i said about participation for people with bad “feelings/emotions” such as egoism or greed. It’s okay to have someone that gets more than the other in a community as long as other people are okay with that. It’s okay to have some meritocratic people who want to be rewarded based on their efforts inside a community. It just shouldn’t be imposed on people who don’t want it.
Now, for islamist/nazis/tankies, there is something quite different since they precisely want to impose it on people who reject it. Laws from a greater authority is not the only thing capable of stopping such groups from emerging. Education, discussion, negotiation and ultimately justice system that i described can be used as peaceful ways to prevent them. They’re not flawless, as are state solution, and it can come to violence in the end. But it’s also not pure tolerance and freedom of being a bad guy.
My point is not that every state is the same, we obviously agree on this. It is not either that the entire concept of a state is bad because some failed. It is that in wars, genocides, repression, states are actually not failing : it is a part of their arsenal to maintain what you’d call stability and what i’d call their continuity.
I feel like the comparison with malpractice is unfair, because in malpractice it’s not the actual advantages of medicine that’s used to harm more. i’d more happily go with the example of the environment : states are like oil, it has a great list of advantages for humanity, and also has major disadvantages. Now to say if we should stop using oil entirely or just stop using it badly is another debate, and it’s okay to assume that wanting it to stop completely is dumb, but i feel like it’s more of a honest take since diasdvantages of oil are built into it.
I kinda disagree. I’d agree if you had said that violence is inevitable, but imo monopoly of violence is not built into humans. I’d agree to say that it’s built into our current societies, but as we humans, they change and evolve, so it’s not necessarily built in future societies. I still consider advocacy for monopoly of violence as radical, but i also recognize that it’s okay to be radical, and it’s a choice you have strong arguments for. I also thank you for your fair comments, you really try to understand something you don’t seem to know much, and that’s something i highly appreciate.