then its possible they are revisionists (ie not really marxists)
this really does complicate things, not unlike the US situation, but it can still be taken over or superseded by a better organization.
i’m not well versed in belgium socialism though. you are the ones who will have to figure out how to navigate this.
what i can tell you for absolute sure is keeping it in the hands of capitalist oligarchs is 100% guaranteed to lose you this war, even if you manage to push back on yet another battle.
supporting a capitalist surveillance apparatus isn’t socialist at all. as i said, though, i have no idea about how that movement works in belgium, so you tell me.
what i do know is that none of you quite got my point that this is a capitalist project promoted by capitalist oligarchs, and you will not get rid of these attempts without attacking them more directly.
We don’t have to think in political leanings following the left-right paradigm. Parties and persons considered “leftist” aren’t inherently good, nor is the other side inherently bad. Don’t limit yourself by identifying with just one ideology. In case you didn’t realise, socialists tend to like surveillance as well
Of course fascists are bad and can go fuck themselves - but not all “right wingers” are fascists.
Socialist regimes are inherently fond of surveillance. Indiviuals can have any given stance on it. Politically involved people - minus fascists - tend to have stances against surveillance and for data protection.
There’s a lot of nuance inbetween “capitalist” and “anti-capitalist”. I’m not here to defend capitalism but this black-and-white worldview often held by self-proclaimed left-wingers is offputting to the very masses that they claim to represent to such a degree that the working class would rather shoot themselves in the foot by voting for fascists and fascist-adjacents rather than support “crazy leftists”. In the modern age it’s an ideology of a lot of talk and studies and very few results.
i never claimed this. a big portion of right wingers are fascists nowadays, at least in my country. though “regular” right wingers are there in the form of centrists and liberals, you strike me as someone in this group.
Socialist regimes are inherently fond of surveillance
socialist “regimes” are not inherently fond of surveillance. you are probably thinking of china specifically. none of the other currently socialist countries do the same.
There’s a lot of nuance inbetween “capitalist” and “anti-capitalist”.
again, i never claimed otherwise. but you are either in the “capitalist” spectrum, or the “anti-capitalist” spectrum. you seem to be projecting this rigid black and white viewpoint onto me.
very few results
we don’t have the entire state apparatus in our favor, nor the means to directly counter the abundant and persistent anticommunist propaganda spewed by capitalist states.
ill remind you, though, that more than half the world’s population is living under socialism. successfully at that. maybe you guys should give it a fair try before dismissing it as ineffective.
I definitely disagree we’re seeing as terrible rise of fascist ideology; oligarchs controlling the flow of information on the internet is the biggest threat towards human existence.
I wouldn’t even say I’m a regular right-winger, or any kind of wing really, I mainly simply don’t believe in the effectiveness of extremes.
What nations would you consider “properly” socialist? Isn’t a prerequisite for achieving acommunist society a period of socialist government preparing the people’s spirits? Also, even 'socialism" is a spectrum; if any government with progressive taxes is “socialist” then yes, you have plenty of states you can include. Mind you, I’m from Scandinavia - a region often mentioned as an example of socialist policies - but the system is fundamentally capitalist for better and worse.
Sorry if I’m projecting a bit too much onto you! I don’t like capitalism, but I don’t find it realistic or achieveable to rid yourself of it in a meaningful way; history has shown that a new upper class emerges once the heads of the former have been cut off. Power. It’s human nature and it always will be. The best bet is to compromise and pressure capitalist systems as much as possible. Which camp am in?
I don’t know who “you guys” are; I’m not American at least. I have a more specific definition of “socialism” than just living under a system that taxes the rich and has a degree of national control over the means of production
then its possible they are revisionists (ie not really marxists)
this really does complicate things, not unlike the US situation, but it can still be taken over or superseded by a better organization.
i’m not well versed in belgium socialism though. you are the ones who will have to figure out how to navigate this.
what i can tell you for absolute sure is keeping it in the hands of capitalist oligarchs is 100% guaranteed to lose you this war, even if you manage to push back on yet another battle.
Maybe you’re not a real marxist and they are 🤔
supporting a capitalist surveillance apparatus isn’t socialist at all. as i said, though, i have no idea about how that movement works in belgium, so you tell me.
what i do know is that none of you quite got my point that this is a capitalist project promoted by capitalist oligarchs, and you will not get rid of these attempts without attacking them more directly.
“No true Scotsman”.
We don’t have to think in political leanings following the left-right paradigm. Parties and persons considered “leftist” aren’t inherently good, nor is the other side inherently bad. Don’t limit yourself by identifying with just one ideology. In case you didn’t realise, socialists tend to like surveillance as well
i said almost exactly this in my comment, i think you misunderstood my intent. its ok, english is not my first language.
but i’m sorry, fascists are inherently bad.
socisliats aren’t inherently fond of surveillance. most i know are not, including myself.
i really don’t. in contemporary politics, though, its either capitalism or anti-capitalism. right or left. unless you are a feudalist or something.
Of course fascists are bad and can go fuck themselves - but not all “right wingers” are fascists.
Socialist regimes are inherently fond of surveillance. Indiviuals can have any given stance on it. Politically involved people - minus fascists - tend to have stances against surveillance and for data protection.
There’s a lot of nuance inbetween “capitalist” and “anti-capitalist”. I’m not here to defend capitalism but this black-and-white worldview often held by self-proclaimed left-wingers is offputting to the very masses that they claim to represent to such a degree that the working class would rather shoot themselves in the foot by voting for fascists and fascist-adjacents rather than support “crazy leftists”. In the modern age it’s an ideology of a lot of talk and studies and very few results.
i never claimed this. a big portion of right wingers are fascists nowadays, at least in my country. though “regular” right wingers are there in the form of centrists and liberals, you strike me as someone in this group.
socialist “regimes” are not inherently fond of surveillance. you are probably thinking of china specifically. none of the other currently socialist countries do the same.
again, i never claimed otherwise. but you are either in the “capitalist” spectrum, or the “anti-capitalist” spectrum. you seem to be projecting this rigid black and white viewpoint onto me.
we don’t have the entire state apparatus in our favor, nor the means to directly counter the abundant and persistent anticommunist propaganda spewed by capitalist states.
ill remind you, though, that more than half the world’s population is living under socialism. successfully at that. maybe you guys should give it a fair try before dismissing it as ineffective.
I definitely disagree we’re seeing as terrible rise of fascist ideology; oligarchs controlling the flow of information on the internet is the biggest threat towards human existence.
I wouldn’t even say I’m a regular right-winger, or any kind of wing really, I mainly simply don’t believe in the effectiveness of extremes.
What nations would you consider “properly” socialist? Isn’t a prerequisite for achieving acommunist society a period of socialist government preparing the people’s spirits? Also, even 'socialism" is a spectrum; if any government with progressive taxes is “socialist” then yes, you have plenty of states you can include. Mind you, I’m from Scandinavia - a region often mentioned as an example of socialist policies - but the system is fundamentally capitalist for better and worse.
Sorry if I’m projecting a bit too much onto you! I don’t like capitalism, but I don’t find it realistic or achieveable to rid yourself of it in a meaningful way; history has shown that a new upper class emerges once the heads of the former have been cut off. Power. It’s human nature and it always will be. The best bet is to compromise and pressure capitalist systems as much as possible. Which camp am in?
I don’t know who “you guys” are; I’m not American at least. I have a more specific definition of “socialism” than just living under a system that taxes the rich and has a degree of national control over the means of production