It’s not that EVERY full stop is passive aggressive, it’s about interpreting tone.
So for example, when I text my parents and say, “Thank you for the invite, we’d be happy to come over for dinner next Monday!” and my dad replies, “Great.” That looks passive aggressive.
He doesn’t mean it that way, tone interpretation from short texts just isn’t something he’s fluent in like those of us who’ve been texting (or IMing back before texts) most of our lives.
If he had said “Great” that would be fine, as would “Great!” But “Great.” is interpreted as sarcastic and/or passive aggressive.
It’s the explicit inclusion of period where ‘normally’ there wouldn’t be one. In texting or DMs it would normally be assumed that one-liners wouldn’t contain punctuation except to enhance effect, so the inclusion of the full stop is being read as a 😐 or exaggerated neutrality
It’s the explicit inclusion of period where ‘normally’ there wouldn’t be one.
But given the larger history of textual communication, full punctuation is normal. Texting isn’t charged per character so it’s not like there’s a benefit to leaving it out.
Texting isn’t charged per character anymore, and only in most places most of the time. And those habits may still persist in other places. My manner of ‘speech’ is very different in front of a keyboard vs on a phone, for instance.
Does Lemmy need the double space?
This isn’t Reddit after all, and it’s the only Markdown implementation I’ve seen with that requirement for line breaks.
For those of us who learned to type, typing u instead of you will take longer because of muscle memory. I’m using glide typing on a phone for this and I still had to slow down to type u instead of you.
I use Anysoft Keyboard on Android, and it has a toggle for that behavior, which I have off. I don’t know which software keyboard you’re using, but you might check whether it has such a toggle.
As I explained later in the post, “Great.” looks like sarcasm. My brain interprets it as having a sarcastic tone, and thus being passive aggressive.
(I am not alone in this, hence the very thing we’re commenting on.)
How would excluding punctuation make it not look passive aggressive?
You might as well ask why tone of voice changes the way we interpret things. Written short-form communication has evolved cultural norms that some people understand better than others, just like spoken communication. Chalk my tone interpretation up to an adolescence spent on IRC.
My point is that the full stop being passive aggressive is contextual. None of my uses of it here are intended to portray passive aggression or sarcasm, and if I wanted to do that I would not only change my sentence length and structure, but also my vocabulary.
But of course these norms aren’t as readily understood as actual tone of voice, which is why things like “/s” can be useful.
As I explained later in the post, “Great.” looks like sarcasm. My brain interprets it as having a sarcastic tone, and thus being passive aggressive. (I am not alone in this, hence the very thing we’re commenting on.)
I get that it’s a common interpretation amongst a demographic.
You might as well ask why tone of voice changes the way we interpret things
Eh, vocal changes carry actual physical changes in the sound waves which non-hearing-impaired persons can perceive, so I don’t quite think it’s an apt comparison. But I understand your intent in doing so.
But of course these norms aren’t as readily understood as actual tone of voice, which is why things like “/s” can be useful.
Precisely why it seems odd to me to interpret the use of the basic of punctuation whose literary meaning hasn’t ever carried an absence of express indicator of emotional intent to be negative.
Again, thanks for engaging with me on it, even though I still don’t get it.
I think it is because short form texts like IMs/SMS/irc are more like spoken language than written language. And if somebody talks to you and ends a sentence with “period”, the meaning/feeling of the sentence changes.
I can see how someone literally putting the word “period” at the of a sentence gives it a certain tone. But the meaning of a period is that the sentence is ended.
In my mind, the full stop “sounds” like dropping the voice at the end, like you do at the end of a sentence.
And in speech, dropping the voice at the end of “Great” would sound sarcastic.
Whereas an exclamation mark “sounds” high-pitched and excited.
And no punctuation is so normal in text that my mind “adds” the expected sign at the end, which after “Great” would be an exclamation mark.
It’s really hard to explain, I hope I’m making sense.
I would be far more likely to interpret someone I didn’t know who texted great without a period to be sarcastic.
It seems like deviation from their normal pattern would have some meaning, but without context all of these could be read as sarcastic depending on what kind of reaction someone might be expecting.
Read an article a while back which explained why they probably do it, and while I don’t think it’s the one I read back than this one does a pretty good job.
TLDR: for older generations it’s a way of separating thoughts most likely leftover from postcards, whereas for the younger ones it looks like something is being (ominously) left out.
That’s silly, and at the very least probably gonna cause unconscious bias to second language speakers, neurodivergent people & just anyone who doesn’t communicate via text as much as we do
I don’t know what to tell you, communication is complicated. A lot of this is subconscious.
and at the very least probably gonna cause unconscious bias to second language speakers, neurodivergent people & just anyone who doesn’t communicate via text as much as we do
I agree, which is why it’s important for us to understand context and to attempt to interpret what the other person says in the best light.
I didn’t think my dad was actually being sarcastic when he replied that way. His text conveyed a tone he didn’t intend, just like when my neurodivergent ass says something in a tone of voice harsher than I intend.
This is no different from spoken communication, except there we get additional clues about neurodivergence and/or linguistic familiarity.
I didn’t think my dad was actually being sarcastic when he replied that way. His text conveyed a tone he didn’t intend, just like when my neurodivergent ass says something in a tone of voice harsher than I intend.
Both of those are people inferring meaning that isn’t there. I would bet money you didn’t say stuff in a tone of voice harsher than you meant, they just didn’t like what you were saying and read way too much into it.
Everyone in this thread that can’t understand how a period can be passive aggressive just reminds me of Sheldon from Big Bang Theory. They are so focused on what the rules strictly mean, that they can’t detect the nuance of how people actually communicate.
Punctuation is context dependent, and it’s wild just how much of this thread has commenters who are purposely being obtuse about it.
Punctuation on promotional signs is weird. We expect words like “SALE” and “CLEARANCE” and “25% OFF” not to have periods.
Punctuation on newspaper headlines is weird. The AP Style Manual has all sorts of rules and conventions about headline language, and it’s different from normal written language.
Punctuation on titles of artistic, literary, or musical works is weird. When Kendrick Lamar released “DAMN.” the period in the title was part of an artistic choice.
And yeah, the idea that people can only text in complete sentences is absurd and differs from the norms of that medium since its beginning. Starting a conversation with “Hey.” is different from starting a conversation with “hey” and people pretending they don’t get why is kinda puzzling to me.
It simply is correct grammar, something kids seem to be unaware of nowadays.
What a boomer take. I could just as well say that the “kids” seem to be more aware of the use of punctuation in text messaging and the implied emotion they convey
In what way is that passive agressive? That is so weird. I simply ignore tone on the internet or texts. There is not any. Just words. They said great it means great. That’s it.
And I have been sending messages most of my life, and it is a simple rule: there is no tone in texts or messages.
Every time universal signs of people being passive aggressive is explained to me the person who thinks these tiny signs like the exact way someone interacts mean it is passive aggressive they are wrong.
All of the examples apply to either individuals or a specific subset of people. I have relatives who do one thing that is passive aggressive, but when everyone else does the same thing they are just interacting normally. Saying that the shit those relatives do is always a sign of being passive aggressive is not true, it is only in the context of those relatives and other people who might be passive aggressive in the same way.
So for example, when I text my parents and say, “Thank you for the invite, we’d be happy to come over for dinner next Monday!” and my dad replies, “Great.” That looks passive aggressive.
Ugh, that is reading way too fucking much into how someone types text. Maybe it reads that way because it stands out as different from the normal way he types, but if he always ends with a period it would look completely normal!
I don’t think the issue is his fluency in interpreting tone but you’re just interpreting it differently. In this case you’re misinterpreting it since he didn’t mean to be passive aggressive
I’m not saying that’s the interpretation I walked away with. Context is important. I knew my dad wasn’t being sarcastic, just read that way. It made me laugh, it made my wife laugh!
It’s like back when some people didn’t realize all caps meant yelling and they would go around with caps lock on until they had it explained to them.
It’s not that EVERY full stop is passive aggressive, it’s about interpreting tone.
So for example, when I text my parents and say, “Thank you for the invite, we’d be happy to come over for dinner next Monday!” and my dad replies, “Great.” That looks passive aggressive.
He doesn’t mean it that way, tone interpretation from short texts just isn’t something he’s fluent in like those of us who’ve been texting (or IMing back before texts) most of our lives.
If he had said “Great” that would be fine, as would “Great!” But “Great.” is interpreted as sarcastic and/or passive aggressive.
What about it makes it look passive aggressive? How would excluding punctuation make it not look passive aggressive?
It’s the explicit inclusion of period where ‘normally’ there wouldn’t be one. In texting or DMs it would normally be assumed that one-liners wouldn’t contain punctuation except to enhance effect, so the inclusion of the full stop is being read as a 😐 or exaggerated neutrality
But given the larger history of textual communication, full punctuation is normal. Texting isn’t charged per character so it’s not like there’s a benefit to leaving it out.
Texting isn’t charged per character anymore, and only in most places most of the time. And those habits may still persist in other places. My manner of ‘speech’ is very different in front of a keyboard vs on a phone, for instance.
dude/ette
read some fukan poetry OK thanks
If poetry text
Is how you commune with friends
Passive aggressive.
edit: fixed the formatting, and my keyboard unironically took my double-tap on space to add periods for me! 😅
Does Lemmy need the double space? This isn’t Reddit after all, and it’s the only Markdown implementation I’ve seen with that requirement for line breaks.
It does indeed.
Markdown also permits a trailing backslash to be a linebreak, as an alternative to the two trailing spaces.
yields
foo
bar
No, baron, I was just pointing out that there are lots of different rules depending on the medium and genre and participants. le sigh
'twas a haiku 😉
Ehhhhhh, it’s missing a season!
Leaving out unnecessary characters makes you type faster, that’s also why people write u instead of you sometimes
For those of us who learned to type, typing u instead of you will take longer because of muscle memory. I’m using glide typing on a phone for this and I still had to slow down to type u instead of you.
My phone keyboard adds so many unwanted periods, sometimes between every word.
I use Anysoft Keyboard on Android, and it has a toggle for that behavior, which I have off. I don’t know which software keyboard you’re using, but you might check whether it has such a toggle.
I don’t know anything about texting then. I would have been happy they responded.
Good question!
As I explained later in the post, “Great.” looks like sarcasm. My brain interprets it as having a sarcastic tone, and thus being passive aggressive.
(I am not alone in this, hence the very thing we’re commenting on.)
You might as well ask why tone of voice changes the way we interpret things. Written short-form communication has evolved cultural norms that some people understand better than others, just like spoken communication. Chalk my tone interpretation up to an adolescence spent on IRC.
My point is that the full stop being passive aggressive is contextual. None of my uses of it here are intended to portray passive aggression or sarcasm, and if I wanted to do that I would not only change my sentence length and structure, but also my vocabulary.
But of course these norms aren’t as readily understood as actual tone of voice, which is why things like “/s” can be useful.
First off, thanks for humoring me.
I get that it’s a common interpretation amongst a demographic.
Eh, vocal changes carry actual physical changes in the sound waves which non-hearing-impaired persons can perceive, so I don’t quite think it’s an apt comparison. But I understand your intent in doing so.
Precisely why it seems odd to me to interpret the use of the basic of punctuation whose literary meaning hasn’t ever carried an absence of express indicator of emotional intent to be negative.
Again, thanks for engaging with me on it, even though I still don’t get it.
I think it is because short form texts like IMs/SMS/irc are more like spoken language than written language. And if somebody talks to you and ends a sentence with “period”, the meaning/feeling of the sentence changes.
I can see how someone literally putting the word “period” at the of a sentence gives it a certain tone. But the meaning of a period is that the sentence is ended.
It also depends so much on context. My dad texting “Great.” in that text would be different than me texting my work friend:
Them: Paul called out again
Me: great.
Yes. Correct. Accurate.
Wow. What a good question.
Thanks.
In my mind, the full stop “sounds” like dropping the voice at the end, like you do at the end of a sentence.
And in speech, dropping the voice at the end of “Great” would sound sarcastic.
Whereas an exclamation mark “sounds” high-pitched and excited.
And no punctuation is so normal in text that my mind “adds” the expected sign at the end, which after “Great” would be an exclamation mark.
It’s really hard to explain, I hope I’m making sense.
I would be far more likely to interpret someone I didn’t know who texted great without a period to be sarcastic.
It seems like deviation from their normal pattern would have some meaning, but without context all of these could be read as sarcastic depending on what kind of reaction someone might be expecting.
great
great.
great!
The fact that their dad was (possibly?) raised in an era when children were taught to read and write correctly is what makes it passive aggressive…
and just laziness inculcated by Internet/mobile/meme culture.
The boomer triple period is even worse.
My dad does that a lot, and it’s so weird to me
If he does it when he is excited you might let him know about exclamation marks.
Maybe he is trying to be sarcastic.
Nope, just his normal way of talking.
Read an article a while back which explained why they probably do it, and while I don’t think it’s the one I read back than this one does a pretty good job.
TLDR: for older generations it’s a way of separating thoughts most likely leftover from postcards, whereas for the younger ones it looks like something is being (ominously) left out.
Kinda feels passive aggressive, idk man
That’s silly, and at the very least probably gonna cause unconscious bias to second language speakers, neurodivergent people & just anyone who doesn’t communicate via text as much as we do
I don’t know what to tell you, communication is complicated. A lot of this is subconscious.
I agree, which is why it’s important for us to understand context and to attempt to interpret what the other person says in the best light.
I didn’t think my dad was actually being sarcastic when he replied that way. His text conveyed a tone he didn’t intend, just like when my neurodivergent ass says something in a tone of voice harsher than I intend.
This is no different from spoken communication, except there we get additional clues about neurodivergence and/or linguistic familiarity.
Both of those are people inferring meaning that isn’t there. I would bet money you didn’t say stuff in a tone of voice harsher than you meant, they just didn’t like what you were saying and read way too much into it.
If you interpret “Great.” as “passive aggressive”, you are nuts. It simply is correct grammar, something kids seem to be unaware of nowadays.
Everyone in this thread that can’t understand how a period can be passive aggressive just reminds me of Sheldon from Big Bang Theory. They are so focused on what the rules strictly mean, that they can’t detect the nuance of how people actually communicate.
The different context means it’s not a literary communication, but notation for casual speech.
More script or score than Strunk and White.
In that mode, punctuation is performative, and with a period after one word you should weigh heavily on a grim tone of voice, or perhaps sarcasm.
As an old fart and former editor, context is key: there are many modes of expression, and the rules vary.
Punctuation is context dependent, and it’s wild just how much of this thread has commenters who are purposely being obtuse about it.
Punctuation on promotional signs is weird. We expect words like “SALE” and “CLEARANCE” and “25% OFF” not to have periods.
Punctuation on newspaper headlines is weird. The AP Style Manual has all sorts of rules and conventions about headline language, and it’s different from normal written language.
Punctuation on titles of artistic, literary, or musical works is weird. When Kendrick Lamar released “DAMN.” the period in the title was part of an artistic choice.
And yeah, the idea that people can only text in complete sentences is absurd and differs from the norms of that medium since its beginning. Starting a conversation with “Hey.” is different from starting a conversation with “hey” and people pretending they don’t get why is kinda puzzling to me.
What a boomer take. I could just as well say that the “kids” seem to be more aware of the use of punctuation in text messaging and the implied emotion they convey
If you were aware of the use of punctuation, you would use it correctly, not like a kid that failed in school.
I disagree with your entire take.
In what way is that passive agressive? That is so weird. I simply ignore tone on the internet or texts. There is not any. Just words. They said great it means great. That’s it.
And I have been sending messages most of my life, and it is a simple rule: there is no tone in texts or messages.
Ok, zoomer.
Every time universal signs of people being passive aggressive is explained to me the person who thinks these tiny signs like the exact way someone interacts mean it is passive aggressive they are wrong.
All of the examples apply to either individuals or a specific subset of people. I have relatives who do one thing that is passive aggressive, but when everyone else does the same thing they are just interacting normally. Saying that the shit those relatives do is always a sign of being passive aggressive is not true, it is only in the context of those relatives and other people who might be passive aggressive in the same way.
Ugh, that is reading way too fucking much into how someone types text. Maybe it reads that way because it stands out as different from the normal way he types, but if he always ends with a period it would look completely normal!
I don’t think the issue is his fluency in interpreting tone but you’re just interpreting it differently. In this case you’re misinterpreting it since he didn’t mean to be passive aggressive
I’m not saying that’s the interpretation I walked away with. Context is important. I knew my dad wasn’t being sarcastic, just read that way. It made me laugh, it made my wife laugh!
It’s like back when some people didn’t realize all caps meant yelling and they would go around with caps lock on until they had it explained to them.
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