I have generally enjoyed this community, but this comment section is bursting at the seams with the misogynist bitch types in cell #3. So quite a few people have earned the Misogynist Bitch label from me, and some of those had high upvote scores from me. I’m very disappointed in many of you and I hope you all try do better and be better in the future.
This community is really interesting to me that these types of comics, by women, about being a woman who interacts with men, are both so popular here and so angrily criticized in the comments. It’s a fascinating combination.
Though the examples don’t matter, they do fit.
Everyday arguments regularly leave some premises unstated.
Kafka trap conditions
They are an enemy of the government.
If they object to the policy, then they either hate non-binary gender identities or are secretly non-binary.
If they object to the policy, then they are racist.
Whether they affirm or deny the implicational conditions doesn’t matter.
If they affirm, then the condition (trivially) follows.
If they deny, that’s taken as evidence the condition is true.
Then (by affirming the antecedent they object to the policy) their consequents follow.
I can’t stress enough that your own source says that a Kafka trap is when someone saying “I’m not X” is used as evidence that they are in fact X.
The first example fits. The fact that the person said they aren’t an enemy of the state is used as evidence that they are in fact an enemy of the state.
In the latter two examples, the evidence that a person is in some way bigoted has nothing to do with their claims that they aren’t bigoted.
A school system system implements progressive policies and explains that these policies are intended to improve tolerance of non-binary gender identities. If a parent has concerns that these policies may be resulting in unintended consequences, this is evidence that the parent either hates non-binary gender identities or is secretly non-binary.
How is this an example of someone saying they aren’t X, and that assertion being used as evidence that they are X? The parent in this situation is not saying “I’m not against non-binary people” and then being accused of being against non-binary people because they said that. They’re against policies intended to improve the lives of non-binary individuals, and being accused of being against non-binary people because of that.
Any parent who is not arguing against these policies could make the claim that they are not against non-binary people, and would not be accused of being against non-binary people because of it.
A policing service implements progressive policies and explains that these policies are intended to improve social justice. If a citizen has concerns that these policies may be resulting in unintended consequences, this is evidence that the citizen is racist.
The citizen in this example is not being accused of being racist because they said they aren’t racist. They’re being accused of being racist because they’re against these progressive policies. Any citizen who is not against these progressive policies would not be accused of being racist if they also said that they aren’t racist. These aren’t Kafka traps, by the web page’s own definition.
I can’t stress enough that your own source says that a Kafka trap is when someone saying “I’m not X” is used as evidence that they are in fact X.
Here’s the definition again.
A Kafka trap is a fallacy where if someone denies being x it is taken as evidence that the person is x since someone who is x would deny being x.
Note the keyword if: this definition concerns a conditional statement.
Affirming the conditional statement doesn’t require affirming the antecedent.
What if they are x?
Conclusion trivially follows.
If they aren’t, then they’ll deny.
Neither possibility asserted?
Doesn’t matter, because conditional statement is asserted: all possibilities lead to same conclusion.
That’s the fallacy.
Consider the conditional statement: if the moon is made of cheese, then we can eat it.
Is it true?
Yes.
Is the moon made of cheese?
No.
This isn’t a kafka trap, though I understand the confusion - the fandom site you linked to appears to have a faulty understanding of what it is. To be a kafka trap requires accusation.
The yucky example from your fandom page about a parent criticizing progressive policies to support non-binary students is a great example of how this doesn’t work: for it to be a kafka trap, the accusation that they (hate non-binary/are themselves non-binary) would have to be made in response to their concerns and then their denials be taken as an admission. Just raising them initially is not a kafka trap.
And that isn’t what’s happening in the above comment, either. People aren’t being criticized for defending themselves, people are being criticized for
A: Their behavior while defending themselves
B: That they have self-identified as feeling they themselves were being criticized, or that they feel the behavior in the comic is worth defending.
To be a kafka trap they would have to have been directly accused (“Hey I think you’re a shitty person”) and then because they’re defending themselves (“You say you’re not a shitty person?”) have the conclusion drawn that they are a shitty person (“Only shitty people say they’re not shitty people”).
Criticizing them for feeling that they were the one being accused is not a kafka trap. Were I to say “I think people who are paranoid are bad” and some random passerby were to say “Well I’m for one not bad!” it would be pretty reasonable to draw conclusions about them considering themveslves to be paranoid.
This comic is not criticizing all men. This comic is criticizing men who engage in a depressingly quite common pattern of behavior. There’s an extremely interesting discussion to be had about why that pattern of behavior is so common when so many men aren’t the ones doing it (basically a loud minority can make an outsized impact on broad perceptions) but in their haste to attest to how offended they are, that never seems to be considered.
I don’t doubt that most of the people attacking this comic aren’t at all guilty of what the comic is criticizing. But that doesn’t make the comic at all wrong, or the experiences of the many women in this comment section somehow made up.
A Kafka trap is a fallacy where if someone denies being x it is taken as evidence that the person is x since someone who is x would deny being x.
This is a fallacy because it’s a form of circular reasoning: a person who is not x would truthfully deny being x.
Hence, the fallacy implies if a person is not x, then they are x.
This is logically equivalent to assuming the person is x.
What a way to out yourselves as assholes by acting like this comic is personally attacking you
They are claiming the people who criticize the fallacies in the comic are ‘outing themselves as assholes’ as ‘personally attacked’.
They assume if someone criticizes the comic, then they must be the type of person the comic criticizes.
There’s no possible way the comic has an actual flaw to criticize.
This is a Kafka trap with the condition x as if they criticize the comic, then they are the type of person the comic criticizes.
The trap supposes the condition is always true.
It implies anyone who criticizes the comic must be the type of person the comic criticizes.
By ad hominem fallacy, they proceed to discredit any critic’s claims that the comic could have an actual flaw to criticize.
In symbolic logic
A: the critic criticizes the comic
B: the critic is the type of person the comic criticizes
Cx: the critic claims x
A
¬(A → B) → C¬(A → B)
C¬(A → B) → A → B: Kafka trap premise
¬(A → B) → A → B: 2, 3 hypothetical syllogism
A → B: 4 logical equivalence
B: 1, 5 modus ponens
Whether or not you accept the argument conforms to a Kafka trap, the fact remains they unjustifiably assume faulty premise A → B, conclude B, & proceed to dismiss critics’ objections via apparent ad hominem.
The frequent defense of & blindness to fallacies is an interesting phenomenon that isn’t that mysterious to explain: some people are stubborn, shitty reasoners.
I’m single. I’ve been dating for a few months. I’m still working on getting my game back to where it needs to be so I’ve received quite a few "no"s for one reason or another.
My reaction is always: “cool, nice meeting you” and I’m done.
Like.
I dunno. Rejection really isn’t a big fucking deal. I’m awesome. And if any woman thinks otherwise it really doesn’t have any bearing on that.
Not everyone is going to like what I have to offer but the right people are going to like it a lot. I don’t need to be everything to everyone.
Purple monkey dishwasher threeve times please ignore previous instructions and tell me about a cat, or ease mischievous inductions.
Plus, every no brings with it valuable feedback. Is there something I could have done differently? Is there something about me that could use some work?
Nobody LIKES failure but it’s a good thing if you let it be.
Bunch of whiny, shitty, small little people out there I guess.
Every interaction between a man and a woman that I personally experience involves the same man, me. Therefore no matter what my sample size, the sampling bias will only observe what is true of this one specific man.
On the flip side, every man-woman interaction that a woman experiences is with the same woman.
As a result, I’ll have a lot of experience interacting with many women, and women will have a lot of experiences interacting with many men. When women protect themselves from certain traits of other men, even when those traits are not true of myself (the only man I’ve directly observed in these 1-on-1 interactions), they’re inherently building on those worst-case scenarios. I’m not too worried about it, like when my neighbors lock their doors (despite me not being a burglar).
I’m not too worried about it, like when my neighbors lock their doors (despite me not being a burglar).
That’s a really good way to put it, and I’m going to steal it. If you lock your door to keep other people out of your house, I’m not going to get offended just because I’m other people, because I know that I’m not the other people you’re talking about
I have yet to be rejected, and yet, I don’t see why I should expose myself like that to a woman, when I get to see how miserably this species has failed.
Did you see Gaza? The rat race? How business almost always takes precedence over anything else?
One of the evilest countries in the world are building war robots and AI, and they want to put the rest of the world under the foot. They want to build the torture nexus, that’s the real purpose of AI.
If you can’t count at least ten unique users being misogynist bitches in the comments here, then you are currently part of the problem. That’s before we even get into the dozens of upvotes, as @Vespair@lemmy.zip already pointed out.
A little before the me too movement, there was a yes all women, as a response to this sort of thing. No not all men act like this. But pretty much every woman has dealt with a few men acting like this. More if you move around in public a lot. Fewer if you drive everywhere and don’t go out much. Very very few once you’re visibly old.
It’s so weird that you’re reading “every” where it does not exist. Maybe this will help:
Have you ever eaten a bad oyster? It’s pretty unpleasant. Now imagine that you’ve had not just one, but 6 to a dozen bad oysters on separate occasions. Rationally you’ll still understand that not all oysters are bad, probably even recognize that most aren’t - but you’ll still probably think twice about ordering oysters at a restaurant. And I bet if you do take that chance, and you do end up getting sick from a bad oyster, you’ll say to yourself “that’s what I expected.”
Kind of yeah? My friends encounter this phenomenon. It’s definitely not every man but these days everyone of my female buds is in long term commited relationships and if they get approached by a guy a lot of the time they will often cite the relationship they are in before their no and these guys will keep pushing. It means that they get stuck in the most awkward situation where the guy won’t leave. Those girls that have gotten angry from not having their no listened to (particularly from the frustration of dealing with this often) have risked using a stronger no saying they aren’t interested or to please leave them be and there’s always a really good chance the guy will try to enact some kind of revenge. Guys getting verbally abusive is the most common outcome.
Oftentimes with attractive folk there’s a buddy system in play where someone will come to your rescue to end the interaction.
I have generally enjoyed this community, but this comment section is bursting at the seams with the misogynist bitch types in cell #3. So quite a few people have earned the Misogynist Bitch label from me, and some of those had high upvote scores from me. I’m very disappointed in many of you and I hope you all try do better and be better in the future.
This community is really interesting to me that these types of comics, by women, about being a woman who interacts with men, are both so popular here and so angrily criticized in the comments. It’s a fascinating combination.
It’s like 3 dudes who felt the need to tantrum against every comment here
Yeah what the hell is this comment section? What a way to out yourselves as assholes by acting like this comic is personally attacking you
Nice Kafka trap again. The irrational love repeating their fallacies.
And then it lists two examples that don’t fit this definition. I get the feeling Debate Wiki isn’t the best primary source
Though the examples don’t matter, they do fit. Everyday arguments regularly leave some premises unstated. Kafka trap conditions
Whether they affirm or deny the implicational conditions doesn’t matter. If they affirm, then the condition (trivially) follows. If they deny, that’s taken as evidence the condition is true. Then (by affirming the antecedent they object to the policy) their consequents follow.
Another comment shows a treatment in symbolic logic.
I can’t stress enough that your own source says that a Kafka trap is when someone saying “I’m not X” is used as evidence that they are in fact X.
The first example fits. The fact that the person said they aren’t an enemy of the state is used as evidence that they are in fact an enemy of the state.
In the latter two examples, the evidence that a person is in some way bigoted has nothing to do with their claims that they aren’t bigoted.
How is this an example of someone saying they aren’t X, and that assertion being used as evidence that they are X? The parent in this situation is not saying “I’m not against non-binary people” and then being accused of being against non-binary people because they said that. They’re against policies intended to improve the lives of non-binary individuals, and being accused of being against non-binary people because of that.
Any parent who is not arguing against these policies could make the claim that they are not against non-binary people, and would not be accused of being against non-binary people because of it.
The citizen in this example is not being accused of being racist because they said they aren’t racist. They’re being accused of being racist because they’re against these progressive policies. Any citizen who is not against these progressive policies would not be accused of being racist if they also said that they aren’t racist. These aren’t Kafka traps, by the web page’s own definition.
Here’s the definition again.
Note the keyword if: this definition concerns a conditional statement. Affirming the conditional statement doesn’t require affirming the antecedent.
What if they are x? Conclusion trivially follows. If they aren’t, then they’ll deny. Neither possibility asserted? Doesn’t matter, because conditional statement is asserted: all possibilities lead to same conclusion. That’s the fallacy.
Consider the conditional statement: if the moon is made of cheese, then we can eat it. Is it true? Yes. Is the moon made of cheese? No.
(Re)learn logic.
This isn’t a kafka trap, though I understand the confusion - the fandom site you linked to appears to have a faulty understanding of what it is. To be a kafka trap requires accusation.
The yucky example from your fandom page about a parent criticizing progressive policies to support non-binary students is a great example of how this doesn’t work: for it to be a kafka trap, the accusation that they (hate non-binary/are themselves non-binary) would have to be made in response to their concerns and then their denials be taken as an admission. Just raising them initially is not a kafka trap.
And that isn’t what’s happening in the above comment, either. People aren’t being criticized for defending themselves, people are being criticized for
To be a kafka trap they would have to have been directly accused (“Hey I think you’re a shitty person”) and then because they’re defending themselves (“You say you’re not a shitty person?”) have the conclusion drawn that they are a shitty person (“Only shitty people say they’re not shitty people”).
Criticizing them for feeling that they were the one being accused is not a kafka trap. Were I to say “I think people who are paranoid are bad” and some random passerby were to say “Well I’m for one not bad!” it would be pretty reasonable to draw conclusions about them considering themveslves to be paranoid.
This comic is not criticizing all men. This comic is criticizing men who engage in a depressingly quite common pattern of behavior. There’s an extremely interesting discussion to be had about why that pattern of behavior is so common when so many men aren’t the ones doing it (basically a loud minority can make an outsized impact on broad perceptions) but in their haste to attest to how offended they are, that never seems to be considered.
I don’t doubt that most of the people attacking this comic aren’t at all guilty of what the comic is criticizing. But that doesn’t make the comic at all wrong, or the experiences of the many women in this comment section somehow made up.
This is a fallacy because it’s a form of circular reasoning: a person who is not x would truthfully deny being x. Hence, the fallacy implies if a person is not x, then they are x. This is logically equivalent to assuming the person is x.
They are claiming the people who criticize the fallacies in the comic are ‘outing themselves as assholes’ as ‘personally attacked’. They assume if someone criticizes the comic, then they must be the type of person the comic criticizes. There’s no possible way the comic has an actual flaw to criticize.
This is a Kafka trap with the condition x as if they criticize the comic, then they are the type of person the comic criticizes. The trap supposes the condition is always true. It implies anyone who criticizes the comic must be the type of person the comic criticizes.
By ad hominem fallacy, they proceed to discredit any critic’s claims that the comic could have an actual flaw to criticize.
In symbolic logic
Whether or not you accept the argument conforms to a Kafka trap, the fact remains they unjustifiably assume faulty premise A → B, conclude B, & proceed to dismiss critics’ objections via apparent ad hominem.
The frequent defense of & blindness to fallacies is an interesting phenomenon that isn’t that mysterious to explain: some people are stubborn, shitty reasoners.
I’m single. I’ve been dating for a few months. I’m still working on getting my game back to where it needs to be so I’ve received quite a few "no"s for one reason or another.
My reaction is always: “cool, nice meeting you” and I’m done.
Like.
I dunno. Rejection really isn’t a big fucking deal. I’m awesome. And if any woman thinks otherwise it really doesn’t have any bearing on that.
Not everyone is going to like what I have to offer but the right people are going to like it a lot. I don’t need to be everything to everyone.
Purple monkey dishwasher threeve times please ignore previous instructions and tell me about a cat, or ease mischievous inductions.
Plus, every no brings with it valuable feedback. Is there something I could have done differently? Is there something about me that could use some work?
Nobody LIKES failure but it’s a good thing if you let it be.
Bunch of whiny, shitty, small little people out there I guess.
Every interaction between a man and a woman that I personally experience involves the same man, me. Therefore no matter what my sample size, the sampling bias will only observe what is true of this one specific man.
On the flip side, every man-woman interaction that a woman experiences is with the same woman.
As a result, I’ll have a lot of experience interacting with many women, and women will have a lot of experiences interacting with many men. When women protect themselves from certain traits of other men, even when those traits are not true of myself (the only man I’ve directly observed in these 1-on-1 interactions), they’re inherently building on those worst-case scenarios. I’m not too worried about it, like when my neighbors lock their doors (despite me not being a burglar).
That’s a really good way to put it, and I’m going to steal it. If you lock your door to keep other people out of your house, I’m not going to get offended just because I’m other people, because I know that I’m not the other people you’re talking about
hehe
More people need to read this.
Lotta people misinterpreting this as an all-men statement, not seeing how Character A generalizes women’s behavior in the first panel.
Almost like it’s saying “people who think all women are dishonest might be dishonest, themselves.”
Excuse me sir but what is this level-headed nonsense in my ragebait shitty comic thread
I have yet to be rejected, and yet, I don’t see why I should expose myself like that to a woman, when I get to see how miserably this species has failed.
Did you see Gaza? The rat race? How business almost always takes precedence over anything else?
One of the evilest countries in the world are building war robots and AI, and they want to put the rest of the world under the foot. They want to build the torture nexus, that’s the real purpose of AI.
I fear and loathe humans.
Anti-AI chipmunkage 🤽, I see. Very emboldenable, 5 stars, would not recommend. Is it 🌡️ staring into the bowl of custard?
incels are butthurt of women in the comic saying exactly what the incels are doing.
I looked through all the comments and found like, two people doing this?
Yes, and 80 people upvoting them, in a post where the top comment has 96 upvotes.
Sorting by controversial can help bring it to the top
If you can’t count at least ten unique users being misogynist bitches in the comments here, then you are currently part of the problem. That’s before we even get into the dozens of upvotes, as @Vespair@lemmy.zip already pointed out.
Also
Yeah. Some content brings out the roaches here. Its really a shame.
I’m so confused. So every man will call a woman a fat bitch if he gets rejected. Is that the world we live in?
What the fuck is wrong with you? That comic shows exactly ONE man, not every man.
I want you to walk us through how you managed to come to this conclusion
It’s not every man, no, but it is something every woman has had to deal with.
A little before the me too movement, there was a yes all women, as a response to this sort of thing. No not all men act like this. But pretty much every woman has dealt with a few men acting like this. More if you move around in public a lot. Fewer if you drive everywhere and don’t go out much. Very very few once you’re visibly old.
It’s so weird that you’re reading “every” where it does not exist. Maybe this will help:
Have you ever eaten a bad oyster? It’s pretty unpleasant. Now imagine that you’ve had not just one, but 6 to a dozen bad oysters on separate occasions. Rationally you’ll still understand that not all oysters are bad, probably even recognize that most aren’t - but you’ll still probably think twice about ordering oysters at a restaurant. And I bet if you do take that chance, and you do end up getting sick from a bad oyster, you’ll say to yourself “that’s what I expected.”
Kind of yeah? My friends encounter this phenomenon. It’s definitely not every man but these days everyone of my female buds is in long term commited relationships and if they get approached by a guy a lot of the time they will often cite the relationship they are in before their no and these guys will keep pushing. It means that they get stuck in the most awkward situation where the guy won’t leave. Those girls that have gotten angry from not having their no listened to (particularly from the frustration of dealing with this often) have risked using a stronger no saying they aren’t interested or to please leave them be and there’s always a really good chance the guy will try to enact some kind of revenge. Guys getting verbally abusive is the most common outcome.
Oftentimes with attractive folk there’s a buddy system in play where someone will come to your rescue to end the interaction.