Racist? I’d love to hear why you think that’s racist. To me, racism means discriminating against someone because of their race, and that’s not what I’m doing.
I’m just pointing out a reality: how much support Hamas has among Gaza’s population. Of course, not everyone supports them. The real victims here are the people who never supported Hamas, never wanted this war and are trapped in a deadly situation they didn’t create.
But you can’t ignore all those pro-Hamas demonstrations after their attacks on Israel over the years. That has nothing to do with race or ethnicity.
“Palestinians don’t respect other ethnicities or religions” is an example of racism, because it is of the form:
[Ethnic group/race] [has or displays negative personality trait], without any concessions as to individual choice or action (though you tried to add this in your last comment) and without any evidence.
Therefore you are saying that people who are simply born Palestinian are somehow less likely than people born elsewhere to display compassion towards other ethnic groups or religions. Since compassion in general is a common human trait, and almost universally held as a positive one, you are dehumanising Palestinians as a whole in this statement, which is clearly also to say, discriminating against them.
It is the most naked type of racism, down there with ideas like, “the blacks are more violent”, " savage tribals" and the like.
I’m trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here and I don’t think I can explain this any more clearly: a statement of the form [Ethnic group/race] is [personality trait] is explicitly racist, and that’s the type of statement you have made here.
(It’s worth pointing out that the word “all” is correctly inferred unless you specify a subset. So where you’ve written “Palestinians”, because of the nature of the English language, that means “all Palestinians” by default.)
On the one hand you put the Israeli government. On the other hand you put Palestinians, like …the entire people.
And then you go running your mouth about what Palestinians “really are”, what they care about, what they respect or not. Palestinians. Like the entire people.
Why is this hate speech? Just because we disagree?
Like I told another user in this thread, the fact that there are extremists and radicals in both Israel’s government and society is undeniable. But you can’t ignore how a significant part of Palestinian society has supported Hamas and pursued conflict against Israel.
Politics is complicated, and if we want a better world, we should look at both sides, not just “cheer for our team”.
I don’t want governments promoting Jewish radicalism, but neither Islamic radicalism.
You’re not “just disagreeing.” You’re collapsing millions of Palestinians into a caricature and then acting like that’s analysis. That’s prejudice, plain and simple.
You bring up Hamas as if it reveals the Palestinian soul. History cuts both ways: in the 1940s, Zionist militias like Irgun and Lehi planted bombs in markets, assassinated diplomats, and massacred civilians. They had widespread support among Jewish settlers who believed violence was the only path. By your logic, that would make Jews “really” terrorists. It’s absurd. Armed groups rise and fall under conditions of occupation and war; they don’t define whole peoples.
As for human rights and respect for diversity: there are Palestinian lawyers, feminists, queer activists, union organizers, and journalists who fight for those values every single day, often against impossible odds. Pretending they don’t exist is convenient for your narrative, but it’s false.
And that swipe about “cheering for our team”? That’s bad faith. Pointing out racism isn’t “picking a side.” It’s refusing to normalize slander. You can critique governments all day long, but the moment you essentialize millions of human beings into what they “really are,” you’ve crossed into hate speech.
Look, in all honesty… both Palestinians and Israeli have failed at democracy: one side put Hamas into power (well, in Gaza) and the other side gave power to Netanyahu…
I couldn’t say which is worse between the two governments, nor I think debating it will get us anywhere; what I can say (with absolute certainty and no fear of being disproved) is that neither one reach the minimum level of decency human beings should expect from any government.
Let’s stop debating who is more wrong between Israel and Hamas: they are both unimaginably wrong.
Personally, I do blame both the Palestinian and Israeli people (not only their governments) for what is happening now, and for what has been happening for decades beforehand (of course this doesn’t mean that each and every Palestinian person is to blame, and the same is true on the Israeli side).
I even dare saying that I think neither people deserve to self-govern, since they have shown to be unable to do it responsibly.
I think you don’t get what “arrogance” means (not a fault: English is not my first language either and it just happens that the English concept of “arrogance” exists with the same nuances in my language - I guess it’s not the same for yours).
In layman’s terms, arrogance is when one dismisses another’s opinion not for its (de)merits, but because they believe their own is a priori the right one.
Ironically, that describes more closely your “the amount of arrogance dripping off of this comment omg” than me expressing a position 1) without refusing another’s, 2) explaining the reasoning behind it, and 3) explicitly stating that it is my opinion (“I think”) and not factual reality.
You’re assuming you get to say who deserves self governance.
I am in fact allowed to say who I think (you conveniently omitted this) deserves to self-govern… What do you mean I don’t get to say that? Why? Do you get to say what I can say and what I can’t?
Regardless, I’ll try to explain my reasoning further… hopefully this will bring this discussion back into productive lands.
It is normal that people can be stripped of their rights if they can’t use them responsibly (where I live this only applies to most rights, but in those backwards countries that still have the death penalty even the very right to be alive can be retracted).
Drive carelessly and your license gets taken away, show you are unstable and your gun+carry permit get taken away, kill and your freedom gets taken away, etc.
Specifically, for serious crimes (IIRC where I live it’s those with 5+ years of detention, but IANAL) people have their very right to vote taken away.
Now, self determination is not more fundamental a right than voting (in fact, in a democracy it’s the same thing, only for the populace at large instead of individuals)… why should that be inviolable?
I don’t really see the point in ranking who is worse (I mean… what do you/mankind get once such a ranking is established?), but for the sake of argument: what criterion are you going by?
what do you/mankind get once such a ranking is established
From principles potentially comes a clarity of opinion.
what criterion are you going by?
There are plenty of ways in which Israel is bad and if you look at any of those, Hamas is worse. But the overall bottom line difference is visible when we look at what would be the ideal end game for both of these entities: Israel wants to live in peace. Hamas (and many others in that area) wants to destroy Israel, and the liberal west in general too.
That they are unable to do so doesn’t remove the fact that they would very much want to. Global Jihad is not a conspiracy theory.
From the river to the sea there will be democracy, human rights, and equal political rights for people of all ethnicities and confessions.
@theacharnian
I get why you hate Israel’s government, but a lot of pro-Palestinian people are just choosing to ignore who Palestinians really are.
Palestinians aren’t exactly democratic, don’t care much about human rights, and don’t respect other ethnicities or religions.
Can you not see how hideously racist your comment is?
You’re just going to leave that there?
Racist? I’d love to hear why you think that’s racist. To me, racism means discriminating against someone because of their race, and that’s not what I’m doing.
I’m just pointing out a reality: how much support Hamas has among Gaza’s population. Of course, not everyone supports them. The real victims here are the people who never supported Hamas, never wanted this war and are trapped in a deadly situation they didn’t create.
But you can’t ignore all those pro-Hamas demonstrations after their attacks on Israel over the years. That has nothing to do with race or ethnicity.
“Palestinians don’t respect other ethnicities or religions” is an example of racism, because it is of the form:
[Ethnic group/race] [has or displays negative personality trait], without any concessions as to individual choice or action (though you tried to add this in your last comment) and without any evidence.
Therefore you are saying that people who are simply born Palestinian are somehow less likely than people born elsewhere to display compassion towards other ethnic groups or religions. Since compassion in general is a common human trait, and almost universally held as a positive one, you are dehumanising Palestinians as a whole in this statement, which is clearly also to say, discriminating against them.
It is the most naked type of racism, down there with ideas like, “the blacks are more violent”, " savage tribals" and the like.
I’m trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here and I don’t think I can explain this any more clearly: a statement of the form [Ethnic group/race] is [personality trait] is explicitly racist, and that’s the type of statement you have made here.
(It’s worth pointing out that the word “all” is correctly inferred unless you specify a subset. So where you’ve written “Palestinians”, because of the nature of the English language, that means “all Palestinians” by default.)
On the one hand you put the Israeli government. On the other hand you put Palestinians, like …the entire people.
And then you go running your mouth about what Palestinians “really are”, what they care about, what they respect or not. Palestinians. Like the entire people.
That’s fucking hate speech.
Why is this hate speech? Just because we disagree?
Like I told another user in this thread, the fact that there are extremists and radicals in both Israel’s government and society is undeniable. But you can’t ignore how a significant part of Palestinian society has supported Hamas and pursued conflict against Israel.
Politics is complicated, and if we want a better world, we should look at both sides, not just “cheer for our team”.
I don’t want governments promoting Jewish radicalism, but neither Islamic radicalism.
You’re not “just disagreeing.” You’re collapsing millions of Palestinians into a caricature and then acting like that’s analysis. That’s prejudice, plain and simple.
You bring up Hamas as if it reveals the Palestinian soul. History cuts both ways: in the 1940s, Zionist militias like Irgun and Lehi planted bombs in markets, assassinated diplomats, and massacred civilians. They had widespread support among Jewish settlers who believed violence was the only path. By your logic, that would make Jews “really” terrorists. It’s absurd. Armed groups rise and fall under conditions of occupation and war; they don’t define whole peoples.
As for human rights and respect for diversity: there are Palestinian lawyers, feminists, queer activists, union organizers, and journalists who fight for those values every single day, often against impossible odds. Pretending they don’t exist is convenient for your narrative, but it’s false.
And that swipe about “cheering for our team”? That’s bad faith. Pointing out racism isn’t “picking a side.” It’s refusing to normalize slander. You can critique governments all day long, but the moment you essentialize millions of human beings into what they “really are,” you’ve crossed into hate speech.
Look, in all honesty… both Palestinians and Israeli have failed at democracy: one side put Hamas into power (well, in Gaza) and the other side gave power to Netanyahu…
I couldn’t say which is worse between the two governments, nor I think debating it will get us anywhere; what I can say (with absolute certainty and no fear of being disproved) is that neither one reach the minimum level of decency human beings should expect from any government.
Let’s stop debating who is more wrong between Israel and Hamas: they are both unimaginably wrong.
They didn’t say “Hamas” , they said “Palestinians”, i.e. the ethnic group.
Just for exposition, let’s flip it round and see how disgusting it is:
Personally, I do blame both the Palestinian and Israeli people (not only their governments) for what is happening now, and for what has been happening for decades beforehand (of course this doesn’t mean that each and every Palestinian person is to blame, and the same is true on the Israeli side).
I even dare saying that I think neither people deserve to self-govern, since they have shown to be unable to do it responsibly.
The amount of arrogance dripping off of this comment omg.
Can you elaborate?
You’re assuming you get to say who deserves self governance.
That’s a presumptuous claim manifesting an attitude of superiority in quite an overbearing manner.
I think you don’t get what “arrogance” means (not a fault: English is not my first language either and it just happens that the English concept of “arrogance” exists with the same nuances in my language - I guess it’s not the same for yours).
In layman’s terms, arrogance is when one dismisses another’s opinion not for its (de)merits, but because they believe their own is a priori the right one.
Ironically, that describes more closely your “the amount of arrogance dripping off of this comment omg” than me expressing a position 1) without refusing another’s, 2) explaining the reasoning behind it, and 3) explicitly stating that it is my opinion (“I think”) and not factual reality.
I am in fact allowed to say who I think (you conveniently omitted this) deserves to self-govern… What do you mean I don’t get to say that? Why? Do you get to say what I can say and what I can’t?
Regardless, I’ll try to explain my reasoning further… hopefully this will bring this discussion back into productive lands.
It is normal that people can be stripped of their rights if they can’t use them responsibly (where I live this only applies to most rights, but in those backwards countries that still have the death penalty even the very right to be alive can be retracted).
Drive carelessly and your license gets taken away, show you are unstable and your gun+carry permit get taken away, kill and your freedom gets taken away, etc.
Specifically, for serious crimes (IIRC where I live it’s those with 5+ years of detention, but IANAL) people have their very right to vote taken away.
Now, self determination is not more fundamental a right than voting (in fact, in a democracy it’s the same thing, only for the populace at large instead of individuals)… why should that be inviolable?
Hamas. Hamas is worse, but then again it’s barely a government. Which is one of the many reasons why palestine is not a country.
I don’t really see the point in ranking who is worse (I mean… what do you/mankind get once such a ranking is established?), but for the sake of argument: what criterion are you going by?
From principles potentially comes a clarity of opinion.
There are plenty of ways in which Israel is bad and if you look at any of those, Hamas is worse. But the overall bottom line difference is visible when we look at what would be the ideal end game for both of these entities: Israel wants to live in peace. Hamas (and many others in that area) wants to destroy Israel, and the liberal west in general too.
That they are unable to do so doesn’t remove the fact that they would very much want to. Global Jihad is not a conspiracy theory.
Israel wants to live in peace? What the actual fuck are you talking about. It is an apartheid regime committing genocide.