The point I’m trying to make is that Ukraine was invaded, and the people there are trying to defend their homes and families from the invading army. They’re not fighting because some rich oligarch told them to.
Then who triggered the invasion? A whole race of evil Russians who do it because… because… they’re evil Russians? I don’t think so.
Wars are always caused by the ruling classes whether oligarchs, millionaires, aristocrats or whomever. They don’t end up fighting but leave it up
to the ordinary people to give their lives. Those Ukrainians dying are certainly not the rich. Ukrainian rich are all in places like the South of France and LA.
Putin triggered the invasion by ordering it. It’s really not as complex as you’re making out. If my neighbourhood was being invaded, I’d like to think I’d take up arms to defend it rather than sitting around complaining about oligarchs. But you do you.
A bit like all those young men slaughtered in the World Wars (and about every war, really). When the lord of the manor or the king or your priest tells you to sign up and fight, you fight to defend their property. When foreign armies invade, they’re not after the houses and property of the poor or to take over local communities for some vague reason. They’re commanded to go after after the land and property of the rich (for their king or oligarch). It’s not hard to understand that. But, as you say, you go and do you and die for your abstract country, king and god.
So when the Nazis were sweeping through Eastern Europe, burning down people’s homes, sending people to death camps… anyone who resisted that was, in your opinion, a toadying bootlicker who just wanted to keep the oligarchs happy. Am I getting it right?
Do you mean nazis or German soldiers? There is - if you know your history - quite a difference. But, to answer your question, yes. A bit like British conscripts going off to fight and it being drilled into them to follow orders along with the threat of being shot if they didn’t follow orders. You seem to forget that the Allies also committed terrible atrocities on the European mainland in both wars. I don’t think ordinary people - German, Russian or British - are inherently evil and bloodthirsty in the way you seem to. But I do think that tools like propaganda and patriotism can be used to manipulate and coerce.
I mean the German soldiers who followed the orders of the Nazi regime. Orders to massacre entire villages, drag women and children out of their homes and into death camps, gather people in forests under the guise of providing refuge and machine-gun them down.
Patriotism and propaganda are not the only reason someone would want to protect their family and community from an invading army. You can “both-sides” it all you want, but if an invading army was threatening my community, I would take up arms against it. If that means joining a military I wouldn’t normally see eye-to-eye with, but which would help protect my community, then so be it.
Good for you if you’ve never had to make a difficult moral choice like that. You can stay in your world of hypotheticals.
Family. Country. Flag. King. Sunday dinner. The village green. Fish & Chips. God. Now that’s patriotism. Who wouldn’t want a bloodbath to save all that from the fiendish Enemies of England who eat babies and don’t speak the King’s English and whose leader is insane?
Look, if you don’t have anyone in your life who you’d be willing to fight to defend, then I’m sorry. I’m sorry you can’t countenance the idea of a community that isn’t built on flags and monarchies. But they exist.
The point I’m trying to make is that Ukraine was invaded, and the people there are trying to defend their homes and families from the invading army. They’re not fighting because some rich oligarch told them to.
Then who triggered the invasion? A whole race of evil Russians who do it because… because… they’re evil Russians? I don’t think so.
Wars are always caused by the ruling classes whether oligarchs, millionaires, aristocrats or whomever. They don’t end up fighting but leave it up to the ordinary people to give their lives. Those Ukrainians dying are certainly not the rich. Ukrainian rich are all in places like the South of France and LA.
Putin triggered the invasion by ordering it. It’s really not as complex as you’re making out. If my neighbourhood was being invaded, I’d like to think I’d take up arms to defend it rather than sitting around complaining about oligarchs. But you do you.
A bit like all those young men slaughtered in the World Wars (and about every war, really). When the lord of the manor or the king or your priest tells you to sign up and fight, you fight to defend their property. When foreign armies invade, they’re not after the houses and property of the poor or to take over local communities for some vague reason. They’re commanded to go after after the land and property of the rich (for their king or oligarch). It’s not hard to understand that. But, as you say, you go and do you and die for your abstract country, king and god.
So when the Nazis were sweeping through Eastern Europe, burning down people’s homes, sending people to death camps… anyone who resisted that was, in your opinion, a toadying bootlicker who just wanted to keep the oligarchs happy. Am I getting it right?
Do you mean nazis or German soldiers? There is - if you know your history - quite a difference. But, to answer your question, yes. A bit like British conscripts going off to fight and it being drilled into them to follow orders along with the threat of being shot if they didn’t follow orders. You seem to forget that the Allies also committed terrible atrocities on the European mainland in both wars. I don’t think ordinary people - German, Russian or British - are inherently evil and bloodthirsty in the way you seem to. But I do think that tools like propaganda and patriotism can be used to manipulate and coerce.
I mean the German soldiers who followed the orders of the Nazi regime. Orders to massacre entire villages, drag women and children out of their homes and into death camps, gather people in forests under the guise of providing refuge and machine-gun them down.
Patriotism and propaganda are not the only reason someone would want to protect their family and community from an invading army. You can “both-sides” it all you want, but if an invading army was threatening my community, I would take up arms against it. If that means joining a military I wouldn’t normally see eye-to-eye with, but which would help protect my community, then so be it.
Good for you if you’ve never had to make a difficult moral choice like that. You can stay in your world of hypotheticals.
Family. Country. Flag. King. Sunday dinner. The village green. Fish & Chips. God. Now that’s patriotism. Who wouldn’t want a bloodbath to save all that from the fiendish Enemies of England who eat babies and don’t speak the King’s English and whose leader is insane?
Look, if you don’t have anyone in your life who you’d be willing to fight to defend, then I’m sorry. I’m sorry you can’t countenance the idea of a community that isn’t built on flags and monarchies. But they exist.